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Old Sep 07, 2010, 11:19 AM
treefinder
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SE MI
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Doughpat: Yes there are plans for KFM aileron wings, yes there are tips to building a wing with dihedral, etc. Best thing is to check the sticky at top of this forum titled Tony65x55 planes. The second post (i think) is all about the Blubaby, and shows links to all the plans, tips, etc.

Second, the removeable wing (rubber band retained) makes it easy to do a UC wing 3ch blubaby that can be instantly (almost!) converted to aileron 4channel wing. I have made two UC (actually KFM5a or KFC wings)wings for my 42" BB, and fly her quite nicely as a 3 channel plane, nice and slow, or even simple aerobatics, But also made a KFM3 wing with only half an inch dihedral and full span ailerons and with that wing she's able to do just about anything you want aerobatically. I just pop UC wing off and connect the KFM wing's aileron servo to ch1 moving rudder to ch 4 and rubber band the wing on. I don't even have to change trims. The aileron wing needs to be pretty flat, not much dihedral, and lots of differential (aileron going up is more than twice as far as aileron going down), but that's easy to set up. Do a search on "aileron differential" on this thread for several pics and tips on setting it up.

Here's two vids showing how the wings fly:
UC: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=bb+christmas

aileron: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=aileron+wing

Good luck! I think the BB will suit your needs well.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 11:26 AM
treefinder
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Saw your post done while I was searching for links....
UC (or kfc) can fly incredibly slow, but will tend to nose up on acceleration, and is more sensitive to wind conditions. On the BB, this isn't a disastrous charactaristic, but it will be more "floaty" with the UC wing. That will allow flying slow enough to make a mistake, recognize it and correct before it's "doinked" - good for learning the "reversal" issue. The KFM wing isn't as floaty, but is more directional. won't pop the nose up, but still has great glide (watch the landings in the video - she got into ground effect and just wouldn't land - course I wasn't doing a good flare either....)

The key to ailerons on the BB is getting the differential sorted out. And it's pretty easy, More is better, and it can be done with only one servo and a simple four channel non computer radio. (Also can be done with two servos, and computer mixing, but not required)

Need to add, that I agree with Ken that on the smaller versions the UC wing works better. All my aileron experience is with my 42" bird, and that's what I'd suggest you use for the training, as it flys slower naturally (the smaller ones fly slow but take a bit more attention to do so well)
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Canada, BC, Williams Lake
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doughpat have you thought about a free sim to help train there thumbs a little before they take to the air

here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1102829

or here http://n.ethz.ch/student/mmoeller/fms/index_e.html

Having a little sim time would greatly increase there chance of success and probably make it way more enjoyable .
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 12:55 PM
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doughpat

First, Yes, recomendation on the wings. UC is in my opinion, better for teaching, it will land so slow, giving students time to react. (BB 33" version). You could have students make multiple wings one day, so they have spares, but I have yet to destroy one that can't be fixed in minutes. Get the KFm with ailerons, without enough differential, it will totally discourage all of you. KFm as R/E/T is stronger, but heavier, so flight speeds, and power consumption go way up. Never forget how it was to learn to fly, some naturals, some need lots of practice!

Second, The best orientation trick I ever learned when teaching someone to fly:When the plane is going away from you easy. But when turning or coming back at you, get the student used to pivioting their toes on their feet in the direction the plane is heading. (Extreme example is looking back over the shoulder). But trust me, even a slight shift of the toes to the direction of flight is all it takes. Somehow the brain now can 'convert' the data, quickly! I usually only have to stand there and remind them a few times, or hands on shoulder, pivot them in the right direction.

Don't worry about having student doing the twist their whole flying career, after about 6-20 flights, you and they, will discover they are no longer turning the feet, as the brain has learned how to react, facing full forward!

Try it, it works!

Fred
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 01:53 PM
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Joplin, Mo.
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i never had much luck cutting the wing, sanding the dihedral angle then getting it glued together right. years ago someone posted in another group a much quicker and easier way.
before you roll in the camber mark the exact center of the wing on both the le and te edge and draw a line between the marks on the bottom side. then form the camber. once that is done cut on the center line all the way thru the wing about 2" to 2 1/2" back toward the rear, more if you have a really large wing. you want the cut to go almost but not quite to the camber peak.
turn the wing over and from the cut you made cut about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way thru the wing on back to the te. now fold the wing up to the desired dihedral and tape the ends of the wing together with masking tape stretched across. this will hold the dihedral while you glue it. masking tape works better than scotch tape as it's easier to remove when you are finished. measure from the tape at the center to the wing and you will see how much dihedral you have, and can adjust the tape if necessary. or hold one side flat against the table and measure the distance of the opposite wing tip to the table and devide by two.
cut a wedge of foam to match the "V" that opened at the le and form it to the curve of the wing. use gorilla or probond glue to glue in the foam wedge and fill the crack that opened along the bottom. you can set the wing upside down while the glue dries, the masking tape will hold the dihedral.
when using gorilla or probond glue always mix a few drops of water with it first. mix until it turns a slightly lighter color. this will greatly speed up the drying time and make a tougher bond. the only down side is that it will expand more and quicker. just keep mashing it down with a wet finger. mixing water with it shortens the drying time down to about an hour, give or take, greatly reducing your build time. the same method can be used for polyhedral wings.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 03:36 PM
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Here is the method that I subscribe to. Works 100% of the time.

See attached pic.

Ken
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 03:56 PM
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Joplin, Mo.
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i think most people get good results cutting the wing in half then sanding and rejoining. for me it's much easier and a whole lot quicker to keep the wing in one piece. you don't have the problem of getting the proper angle and keeping it as you glue the halves together, no gaps in the joint because the wing is still in one piece. plus it's easy to change the amount of dihedral/polyhedral if you want before the glue sets up by undoing the masking tape from one tip and retaping it to the desired angle. and with 2/3 of the wing still in one piece i'm thinking it's stronger at the bend, especially when using probond or other polyurethane glue mixed with a few drops of water.
a brace can be made by slightly overlapping two bamboo skewers to the desired angle then wrapping the joint with dental floss and soaking it with ca/superglue. once done the angled skewers can be taped to the underside of the wing at the camber peak. you may have to cut a notch in the body for the angle joint to sit in. taping the skewer brace with clear tape rather than gluing it to the bottom of the wing is fast and holds just as well. plus it's easy to remove and use again if you manage to trash the wing.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 04:05 PM
Slipping the Surly Bonds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie B View Post
doughpat
...

The best orientation trick I ever learned when teaching someone to fly:When the plane is going away from you easy. But when turning or coming back at you, get the student used to pivioting their toes on their feet in the direction the plane is heading. (Extreme example is looking back over the shoulder). But trust me, even a slight shift of the toes to the direction of flight is all it takes. Somehow the brain now can 'convert' the data, quickly! I usually only have to stand there and remind them a few times, or hands on shoulder, pivot them in the right direction.
...

Try it, it works!

Fred
I like that method Fred. I usually tell them to prop up the low wing with the stick. The main focus being to keep the wings level. I will give your method a try. Sounds a bit more intuitive.

Ken
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dz1sfb View Post
I like that method Fred. I usually tell them to prop up the low wing with the stick. The main focus being to keep the wings level. I will give your method a try. Sounds a bit more intuitive.

Ken
That works well too, if the student doesn't panic and freeze. Only too many students get that panic stricken brain freeze and forget which way to move the stick, followed by many corrections, and the inevitable crash!

I switched to the feet thing and it works for better for me. Nothing is perfect, and all methods need to be taught. Depends on the student's ability to think under pressure!

Thanks for sharing!

Fred
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dz1sfb View Post
Here is the method that I subscribe to. Works 100% of the time.

See attached pic.

Ken
That is one cool tutorial that could be shared 1,000 times when someone is new to building. I'll have to pass it along if you don't mind! Thanks for posting it!

Fred
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:40 PM
BEC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie B View Post
We are talking ground speed here, not airspeed! Exaggerating, not at all, in fact I'm known for being too honest. Think GWS Slow Stick. With throttle management, slight head wind, lots of elevator pulsing, and keeping rudder moving to control wing rock, you can all but harrier this plane to the ground (undercambered that is). Maybe we can get some video.

Nice 7-10 MPH winds you can also land going backwards, using high alpha spurts. I can kite mine up high in the wind, and get no ground speed. Airspeed does not equal ground speed, turn her around into the tailwind and you have to land at 10+ mph!

Just having fun!

Fred
Fair enough.... but there are some beginners (and some magazine reviewers) who actually believe the "lands at walking speed" statements that don't clarify that 7 mph headwind is required to achieve such a landing ground speed. Sure, with a 10 mph wind a BB 33UC or a Slow Stick or any other similarly loaded undercambered airplane can land at zero ground speed.

One thing I love to do on days when people say it's "too windy to fly" is take a plane up and park it in the sky, or fly backwards (relative to the ground). Landing when the wind is higher than the stall speed of the airplane can get a bit dicey. There's a picture in the Mountain Models EZ thread (Parkflyer forum) of what happened to my EZ Scout a split second after such a landing on a beach on the Oregon cost awhile back. It's the last picture in this post.

The BB 33 UC actually can be flown in more breeze than many would expect because it's responsive, yet very very forgiving and it's easy to modulate the airspeed with elevator.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:53 PM
Crash it first, Then fly it
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Cool EZ
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC View Post
Fair enough.... but there are some beginners (and some magazine reviewers) who actually believe the "lands at walking speed" statements that don't clarify that 7 mph headwind is required to achieve such a landing ground speed. Sure, with a 10 mph wind a BB 33UC or a Slow Stick or any other similarly loaded undercambered airplane can land at zero ground speed.

One thing I love to do on days when people say it's "too windy to fly" is take a plane up and park it in the sky, or fly backwards (relative to the ground). Landing when the wind is higher than the stall speed of the airplane can get a bit dicey. There's a picture in the Mountain Models EZ thread (Parkflyer forum) of what happened to my EZ Scout a split second after such a landing on a beach on the Oregon cost awhile back. It's the last picture in this post.

The BB 33 UC actually can be flown in more breeze than many would expect because it's responsive, yet very very forgiving and it's easy to modulate the airspeed with elevator.
Wow, I'm with you there. Some of my favorite memories is taking a Slow Stick out of my truck when all the big gas guys were tucking tail to go home because of the wind! As they laugh, I fly forever! Then they ask what is is, and where can they get one!

The BB is one of those planes that has this magic (on a smaller scale). Have a blast in my front yard/street, doing all kinds of crazy!

Just need to land at your feet if the wind is way too strong, so you can catch it before the wind takes it 2 miles downwind!

Fred
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 06:24 PM
Crash it first, Then fly it
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Aww man! I just missed the windy days in NYC. As Hurricane Earl came, winds picked up here.

You guys make flying in the winds sound like sooo much fun!! School starts tomorrow, so I can't really build much. Trying to get my current planes in the air by Sun, and maybe be able to build 2 or 3 planes over the school year

PS, does th BB fly well when cows are flying over the barn, the train is zooming in the air like a torpedo, and people can fly bikes 200 feet up???
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 07:05 PM
BEC
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My personal rule of thumb is to fly in winds no higher than 1.5 x the stall speed of the airplane I'm thinking of flying. I think your edge-of-Earl winds are a bit higher than that for most any model I can think of
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