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Old Apr 01, 2007, 11:51 PM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
Joined Jun 2002
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Windrider F35 foamy jet

Dear All

I am planning to make a F35 electric foamy jet as following 3D drawing, any suggestion on
EPP or EPS foam material?
32 inch wingspan or smaller?
use 64mm or 70mm EDF?
Aileron or just taileron?
What kind of color sticker decal to use?
Clear or just foam canopy?
Need landing gear?

Ming Lou
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Old Apr 02, 2007, 12:17 AM
EDF Addicted
MustangAce17's Avatar
Ocala,Florida
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Ming,I would like it EPS foam, Wemo Microfan size or 50mm,32 inch ws is good and clear canopy(would be great to try a VTOL version if cheap enough). Looking great and put me on the list for sure
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Old Apr 02, 2007, 12:45 AM
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I'll say 68 to 70mm edf, that way the very common wemotec Minifan 480 can be used. It's a great fan that can absorb a lot of power, comes with a metal adapter that's held on by grub screws (not glue like the GWS), and there's a lot of models out there that use that size fan: many of the RBC kits, and there's probably thousands of HET F-18 arfs that have been sold over the years. The models may crash eventually but usually the power system survives.

That being said, a larger 90mm size would be nice so that it can absorb the weight of retracts. Retracts are more available in the 90mm/6 lb range, smaller than that and there choice of air retracts is very limited and expensive. Maybe retracts wont be a must but having the option of fit them without heavy modification is a nice feature.
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Old Apr 02, 2007, 03:11 PM
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It should be able to ROG. Eps with 70 edf clear canopy
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Old Apr 03, 2007, 06:19 AM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
Joined Jun 2002
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OK..
Hereis the specifications:
EPS foam material
32 inch wingspan
46 inch lenght
70mm EDF with BL motor
3S 2100mAh Lithium Polymer battery
25A ESC and two Futaba #3107 servos
Total take off weight less than 2.25 lbs.
Taileron control

Ming Lou
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Old Apr 03, 2007, 08:39 AM
EDF Addicted
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sounds great Ming
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Old Apr 03, 2007, 06:23 PM
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Great
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Old Apr 03, 2007, 08:59 PM
1.21 gigawatts
EDDIEGIGOWATTS's Avatar
Fort.lauderdale Florida
Joined Jul 2006
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ming i hope you are going to market this f35 like the airbus 380
i want one
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Old Apr 03, 2007, 09:08 PM
EDF rules... :)
AirX's Avatar
Joined Nov 1999
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The picture you posted did not show much of the inlets and duct, how are they defined in area at the inlet and area at the outlet?
Bad duct will not make it much fun and if you do it right it will sell easily because the performance will be there.

Eric B.
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Old Apr 05, 2007, 06:31 AM
Ming's Avatar
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Eric

Yes, I have some problem on the duct design.
If the fan diameter is 100%, can I make the inlet 88% and outlet 85% or even smaller?
Because the real F35 inlet is quit small.

Ming Lou
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Old Apr 05, 2007, 09:31 AM
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FSA (Fan Swept Area) is the area of the opening where the air goes through the fan. In other words, find the area of the entire face of the fan, the subract the area of the motor/spinner/hub, the result is the FSA.

Here's an example
WeMoTec Mini fan 480
Fan Shroud ID 2.715"
Motor tube OD 1.27"
Max Area 5.79 sq. in.
Motor tube area 1.27 sq. in.

Fan swept area 4.52 sq. in[U].
Tailcone diam. 100% 2.4"
Tailcone diam. 95% 2.28"
Tailcone diam. 90% 2.16"

The inlets may look quite small but if you measure and calculate the area you may find plenty of area. 100% of the FSA is the goal, a bit under you'll be ok, a bit larger is OK. You can go way above that and possibly improve static thrust, but too large and the scale looks begin to suffer (look at the huge nacelles on the GWS Me 262 and you'll see what I mean, they're way oversized) and there's increased drag at higher speeds because too much air is going in.

For exhaust aim for about 85 to 90 percent of the FSA.

Another thing to consider is the fan location. For most fighter type edfs, with the battery in the nose under a hatch, the fan needs to be placed with it's face toward the trailing edge of the wing. A fan access hatch on the bottom of the airplane usually looks better than one on the top.

Also, the battery mounting area up front should be made as long as possible to allow room for different sizes, lengths, and weights of batteries to be used. Some users will want to upgrade the power and making a small opening for only one size of battery that can't be moved makes upgrading difficult, a heavier battery would cause problems with balance.

Another factor is inlet ducting....it should be kept far apart until mid wing, then it should come together to meet at the fan. The reasoning is this will allow room between the ducting for a battery to slide farther back to achieve proper balance. A stock size battery may not need to go back that far, but with a power upgrade a heavier battery may be needed. However, you still need to make room for retracts on the outside, so there must be some room between the outside of the fuselage and the ducting, so back from the inlets in the front the ducting can head toward the center of the airplane but not at a really sharp angle, then once you get past the rearmost end of a battery the ducting can make another turn toward the center of the airplane and join in front of the fan. Avoiding sharp turns is important, make gradual turns if possible. With molded foam this is easily achievable.

The inlet ducting should be of a fairly constant area between inlet and fan. The area will actually increase because you're going from 100% FSA at the inlet to the full diameter of the fan at the back which is more than 100% FSA, that is unless you place a round fairing that matches the diameter of the fan in front of the fan, then fairing would end at the spinner (with some fans the spinner would be left off and the fairing would almost touch the hub so there's a smooth transition but it depends on the fan). Look at pictures of the Harrier VTOL inlets to see what I mean. If the inside of the fuselage is left open with no inner inlet walls, that creates drag and limits top speed.

On further thought, a 90mm sized airplane is better able to carry the weight of retracts and larger batteries, and can run with larger tires thus making takeoff from longer grass feasible. Power could be anywhere from 350 watts for a light floater to over 1000, depending on the motor and fan. Also, there aren't many 90mm size foam airplanes out there, and there's already a few different 70mm fan F-35s out there on the market (Scorpio, RBC, Oakdale (well that's a 90 but it's reall on the small side). A length of about 46 to 50 inches would be nice.
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 08:41 PM
EDF rules... :)
AirX's Avatar
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Hi Ming,

Eds on it. I like the 90mm size too if it makes a difference as like ED said there are a lot of 70mm versions out there already.

Eric B.
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 12:29 PM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
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Dear Fellow

Still far away to mass production, like to share some of drawing here:

Ming Lou
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Old Apr 20, 2007, 11:11 PM
1.21 gigawatts
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Fort.lauderdale Florida
Joined Jul 2006
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looks great MING,, keep up the good work
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Old Apr 23, 2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ming
Eric

Yes, I have some problem on the duct design.
If the fan diameter is 100%, can I make the inlet 88% and outlet 85% or even smaller?
Because the real F35 inlet is quit small.

Ming Lou
My basic knowledge of bernulli .. would tell me that inlet and outlet are effecting the airflow resistance ... and the outlet will play a role between trust and speed ... so bigoutlet means not only less resistance, but also more trust and less speed.

So ... for a "slow" park bird ... I would go for outlet bigger then inlet.

I additional ... I personally buy only EPP airplanes now ... sure gears are more expensive then frame ... but rebuild and fix a birds at every bad landing it is not my dream ... after have beat hard my EleBee and Su-29 with no fix needed ... I'm not for spend hobby time on fixing

e_lm_70

PS: I personally like birds in a 120cm 140cm wing span ... so ... maybe a bigger EPP with dual duct ... it will be my idea next bird
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Old Apr 23, 2007, 10:59 AM
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You don't want a larger outlet than inlet...too much math can lead to mistakes in the real world. You can't have a 120 percent outlet and get a huge thrust boost, your exhaust velocity would probably be below the stall speed of the airplane. General rules are inlet 95 to 170 % FSA (probably no need to go above 120%, I don't know how much thrust increases with larger but at speed it adds extra drag...100% FSA inlets work fine if you have a decent power level). Exhaust, 85 to 95% FSA, or at least smaller than the inlets. This increases the velocity of the exhaust. I usually set for 90 to 95 percent and leave it there.

I
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Old Apr 23, 2007, 07:23 PM
EDF rules... :)
AirX's Avatar
Joined Nov 1999
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Hi Ed,

Yup 170% would be the point where spillage would occur in staight and level. 120% is probably a best case with pressure recovery from forward flight speed there would still be room for more air flow before capacity. I like the outlet size your using too. Still accelerating the flow with gradualy less area to the outlet.

Cheers,
Eric B.
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:08 PM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
Joined Jun 2002
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Dear All

The CNC sample was finally finished, I am sure there are many work to do on this project, I will CNC another one for flight test.
Should I go ahead to EDF or just make a glider version like the Airliner?

Ming Lou
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:18 PM
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Ming, I would sell it as is and let people decide on ducts etc. Looks great,would love to do a beta build
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:20 PM
Ming's Avatar
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Far away to production....may be 6 months.
Is it too big?

Ming Lou
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:22 PM
EDF Addicted
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I think it's a great size,at least for where I fly
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:29 PM
P-61 WWII Night Fighter
Solcat's Avatar
Sylmar, CA
Joined Jan 2004
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Size is a plus. tons of small jets in the marketplace. And bigger planes are what people are going to. Lipos and the motors keep getting cheaper
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Old Jun 01, 2007, 11:49 PM
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For this size, should I use 70mm or 80mm duct?
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Old Jun 02, 2007, 08:45 AM
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Its beautiful, what about 90mm.
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Old Jun 02, 2007, 08:51 AM
Ming's Avatar
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Yes, can use 90mm maximum.
But the intake area is limited.
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Last edited by Ming; Jun 02, 2007 at 08:57 AM.
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Old Jun 02, 2007, 11:05 AM
EDF rules... :)
AirX's Avatar
Joined Nov 1999
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Go with the fan that the duct is designed arround, if 70mm is the design point ofr te duct then 70mm will work. 90mm in a 70mm wont work so well with out a cheater hole.

Eric B.
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Old Jun 02, 2007, 01:49 PM
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Well 90mm is a popular size (Wemotec Midifan, Scheubler DS51, Airpower AP900) and lets you use larger diameter motors. As long as you have at least 95 to 100% FSA for the inlet you'll be ok. If you go with some off brand fan that's an unusual size (can't think of who makes an 80mm fan) that may make motor selection more difficult and if the blades are flimsy non reinforced plastic simply upgrading the power may not work if the fan can't take it without exploding blades. A 90mm fan sized airplane can be larger and can handle the extra weight or retracts.

What retract to use is another thing to consider. In the 90mm 5 to 8 lb class there are three air retract designs available, Jet Hangar/Electic Jet Factory, Springair 602s, and Southeast Model Products. So retracts are easy to get.

For smaller 68mm sized fans like the Wemotec Minifan 480, HET 6904, Scheubler DS31, minifan clone, the fan selection size is wide but the selection of air retracts is very slim and they are more expensive than the 90mm units (the far east companies have an opportunity here if only there are enough airplanes designed to use the retracts from the start instead of relying on the builder to modify them). There's retracts in this class from a Canadian company called Model Aviation Products http://www.modelaviationproducts.com..._retracts.html and another set available from Southeast Model Products http://www.southeastmodelproducts.com/ but that's it. Both of those retract sets are more expensive than the mini retracts mentioned before, and supply might be limited.

Another thing to consider is wheel size, larger models can carry larger wheels and larger wheels means you can take off on taller/thicker grass. Many smallers models bungee launch partly because if they had wheels they'd be too tiny to make it through the grass unless it was like a golf course putting green. Larger 90mm models typically have a scale wheels size of 2" to 3" and that size of wheel can handle some grass.

Wow, this can make your head hurt.

Heck why not a 120mm fan sized F-35! Put in 800 watts and it's a floater, put in 3000 watts and it's a fire breathing monster! Nah, not enough power systems out there yet at a cheap price. Big 90 mm (50 to 55" long fuselage) is probably the best overall.
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Old Jun 03, 2007, 07:33 PM
I'm goin' Falcon nuts
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Personally I think it should be smaller. Something we can put a Little Screamers Jet motor and XF or Alfa fan in. They're such awesome power plants.
RCA
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Old Jun 03, 2007, 11:40 PM
1.21 gigawatts
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Fort.lauderdale Florida
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MING looks great i think Ed's right on the money with fan size
plus there are other f35,s out there for smaller fans
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Old Jun 04, 2007, 09:54 PM
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The elevator is not easy to install, linkage too short.
Any suggestion?
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Old Jun 04, 2007, 10:17 PM
Fly it like you stole it..
Tram's Avatar
Florence, Al
Joined Oct 2000
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I think the size is perfect..

I am ready for a few bigger birds..

Jeff
www.CommonSenseRC.com
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Old Jun 04, 2007, 10:29 PM
EDF rules... :)
AirX's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ming
Far away to production....may be 6 months.
Is it too big?

Ming Lou
Ming,

The size will depend on what fan will work with the duct you designed, from my POV the inlet looks quite thin in places. If the duct is too small then the 90mm wont work and a 70mm might be too small to give good performance for a jet that I was copied from. You need 7.9in^2 inlet area for 90mm fans(100% FSA - fan swept area). This area defines how much air will flow thru the inlets without having to realize an increased loading on the fan to raise vacuumn to make it work correctly. You asked and this is the correct answer for inlet duct. Outlet duct would be smaller from 100% down to 88% of FSA. These are near optimum area sets for 90mm, optimum would have the inlet at 120% FSA or 9.48in^2 which would allow best flow to the fan face, less potential load on the rotor.

Eric B.
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Old Jun 05, 2007, 12:29 AM
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Thomas Nelson's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ming
The elevator is not easy to install, linkage too short.
Any suggestion?
Are you asking for suggestions on how to reinforce this area so as to support the horizontal stabilizers? If so, here is how I did this with my F-16. Strong and simple.

Plane looks GREAT, Ming!

tn
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Old Jul 07, 2007, 08:50 AM
diligentia vis celeritas
gunracer's Avatar
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ming,

your f35 looks good...are you still planning on getting it mass produced?...
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Old Jul 07, 2007, 01:36 PM
Cumulus Altimus
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that is nice,when ready for production lett me know i like to have one,70mm is the way to go.
ben
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Old Jul 08, 2007, 01:34 PM
a really nice guy, really
Ralph Brekan's Avatar
Phoenix Intl, Arizona, United States
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Oh My God I Want One! Very Very Cool!
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Old Jul 08, 2007, 07:29 PM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
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Quote:
The elevator is not easy to install, linkage too short.
Any suggestion?
Same problem...the project was holded.

Ming Lou
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Old Jul 09, 2007, 11:11 PM
1.21 gigawatts
EDDIEGIGOWATTS's Avatar
Fort.lauderdale Florida
Joined Jul 2006
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Ming if you are you talking about the hinge line ,,
use a couple of stiff hinges across the hinge line ,,plastic not nylon or maybe metal hinges you might have to ad wood to the trailing edge of the fuse hinge line and elevator if it has flex in it
my friend had the same problem with his su27
how wide is the hinge line
his was 3 inches and work fine
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 12:11 AM
diligentia vis celeritas
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ming,

still not sure what you mean by the linkage is too short...if it's the hinge line, then what eddie suggested should work...if it's the servo arm to the stab control horn, then possibly move the servo forward or use torque rods...

consider getting the kit out to beta testers to work the bugs out...your airframe definitely has potential...don't give up on it...
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 07:37 AM
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Like already said, dont give up on this aircraft. It is beautifull and I would surely want one also.
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 11:06 AM
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The horizontal stabilizer could be hinged just like we do on F-18s and F-22s...a carbon or metal rod that is supported by bearings or bushings. That would be stiffer than using glued in hinges and solves the problem. A bearing on the outside of the fuselage and one on the inner side next to the exhaust would do it, and between that on the inside would be a control arm that tightens down on the stab shaft, accessed with a hatch on the bottom, with the servo a fe inches in front of the pivot shaft.
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Old Jul 27, 2007, 11:35 PM
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F35 maiden flight.
Everything is perfect!
Please see some photos:

Ming Lou
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Old Jul 27, 2007, 11:45 PM
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Great pics now some video
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 01:30 AM
Ming's Avatar
Hong Kong
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Here is the video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYksTpOiEyc

Ming Lou
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Last edited by Ming; Jul 28, 2007 at 01:37 AM.
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 07:52 AM
EDF all the way!
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Gilbert, Az
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Very impressive. When will it be available?
Thanks,
Bob
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 08:44 AM
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Fantastic Ming - congratulations!

It certainly handled the crash well - did you end up making it of EPP or EPS?

Tom
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 08:52 AM
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Hi,

Nice to see you are still making this jet for production, looks great!
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 10:12 AM
diligentia vis celeritas
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excellent job ming!...she looks beautiful in the air and on the ground...good to see the x-flight crew helping out as well...
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 11:39 AM
Cumulus Altimus
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So When Are We Ready For Production?????got To Have One Ming.
Ben
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Old Jul 28, 2007, 11:40 AM
LEO THE LION TO THE KING
SOUTH CAROLINA U.S.A.
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i like it too..and i want one when avialible..put me down too..tom
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