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Old Mar 31, 2007, 10:41 PM
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Carbon Prime - Help develop the perfect parkflyer

Hi all - been real busy with the CTC kits but finally got around to experimenting with a full double surface "pillow case" style wing for the Carbon Prime Convertible. Uses all internal ribs and the wing cover just slips over the frame and bands at the center to tension.

(See the old single surface wing version and videos here - about mid page):

http://www.acesim.com/rc/lab/lab.html

As you can see it flew great before but the shortcomings are the glued fabric and lashing construction as it seems everyone wants an ARF or at least a kit with minimal building required.

Currently I've engineered it to require NO lashing as well as having slip covers for the tail surfaces as well as wing (not shown).

Test flights with the new wing the other day were OUTSTANDING and I'm hard to please!

The fat semi-symmetrical airfoil makes all the difference - mushy straight ahead stall, sporty speed range, even some rolls and inverted. Best of all, unlike the flat plate original, no harsh transition between positive and negative A of A.

Besides being nearly indestructible (old flat wing got broken in a door....) the new design is still totally portable, serviceable, and best of all fully adjustable. Even the airfoil camber and thickness can be tweaked!

Anyway, using wing warping for ailerons with a 4 channel setup with no rudder mixing, I handed the TX to a friend at the field and he thought he was flying an R/E 3 channel from the response of just the right stick. This implies that it should be a good aileron trainer don't you think?

MY QUESTION - to make it less complex I plan to go tapered rectangle on the wings and tail but what size/weight/gear should I shoot for???

Currently it's 36" span - about 2 sq feet area - 9-10 oz RTF. (WL= 4.5 to 5 oz/sq ft)

It's running with 2S or 3S 800s or 2S 1250 and Komodo 17t outrunner with 9x5 DD prop at about 6-8 amps for not quite vertical climb on 3S and fair climb and great duration on the 2S 1250s.

My thinking is a lot of flyers probably have Slow Stick gear laying around they would like to use so should I scale it up to say about 4 ft span and maybe 16 oz AUW or what?

I know the AP guys want it bigger to haul their camera and for them it should probably be a pusher setup as well?

Here's your chance to jump in and help design this bird as I'm just here to please!
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 01:21 AM
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Interesting Toys..Likely they perform well.. but that's the problem for me they look like Toys.
Sadly I much prefer to 'pretend' I'm flying something that looks more like a real plane and I will tolerate reduced performance for the sake of more genuine appearance.. likely I'm not alone in this.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bare
Interesting Toys..Likely they perform well.. but that's the problem for me they look like Toys.
Sadly I much prefer to 'pretend' I'm flying something that looks more like a real plane and I will tolerate reduced performance for the sake of more genuine appearance.. likely I'm not alone in this.
wow, you miss out on some indestructible planes then. Hardlock's planes are far beyond what they 'look' like, they really are remarkable things that are are superbly thought out and worth every penny. I would have said that the CarbonFaclon is the ultimate park flyer... flies awesome, slow to speedy-enough, indestructible, and you can literally cram it into a suitcase.

There are other people like you, but luckily most of us just want awesome birds that fly well


...and actually, the pics that ken posted are actually so close to being a Demoiselle it's spooky... http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...demoiselle.jpg ...so I think you're also speaking a little out of your... something... in terms of it not looking like a "real" plane.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 01:52 AM
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Bare - Thanks for the insight - Hopefully I can expand on the double surface covering method to include a fuse in future models. Nothing wrong with a scale look that won't break and fits in a suitcase.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 05:35 PM
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theKM - thanks for the good words. I guess form does follow function. Lots of ultralights end up looking similar as well. Always was a fan of "Those Magnificent Men in there Flying Machines".

Bare has a point based on the flat plate simplicity of most of my experimental designs on the LAB page. At least the CTC looks like a biplane however.

Any suggestions based on my questions in 1st post? I hate to have to tool up for multiple size planes and really need to roll on this one from all the inquiries I've gotten. Might as well get it right the first time.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardlock
theKM - thanks for the good words. I guess form does follow function. Lots of ultralights end up looking similar as well. Always was a fan of "Those Magnificent Men in there Flying Machines".
"well, I could give up card night I suppose"
"...no need to spoil the girl"

Quote:
Bare has a point based on the flat plate simplicity of most of my experimental designs on the LAB page. At least the CTC looks like a biplane however.
Everything has its positives and negatives. Unless it's made to be pretty, having a full fuse gives it more side area to be thrown around by the wind... which is prolly why the slow sticks and such camera carriers are boom planes or large beasts.

Quote:
Any suggestions based on my questions in 1st post? I hate to have to tool up for multiple size planes and really need to roll on this one from all the inquiries I've gotten. Might as well get it right the first time.
The size you suggest is right at my sweet spot, so personally, no changing sizes for me

However, I think the average plane in the "parky" range is a little bigger in the 15-18oz weights. I think the most popular small brushless outrunners (~30-40g motor) cater to this area (Komodo's doubles... pretty sure they have doubles too). I like the LittleScreamers and such like, so the 10oz would make large power reserves. However, a LittleScreamer would also easily take this bird aloft at 15-18oz. At 20oz thrust it could even be taking payload.

I like small, but if you're shooting for the larger market, I'd be going a little heavier around the 15oz variety.


If you want to make the really indestructible trainer, maybe this bird, with some dihedral and rudder elevator only... that way you could remove the framework underneath. But looking at it again, all the flexy rods, I'm curious as to what pounding it can take already. I'm sure it can take a hit, but a carbonFalcon kind of hit?

I'd like to see it:
- wingtip a tree
- head on into tree/ground

...because of the above, maybe the pusher variant would be more solid Because the CF is indestructible, I reckon it's almost the ideal trainer, but looking at your "lab" page, lowering the CofG may be just what it needs to make it more docile.

As it is, I'm wanting a trainer I can pass around for the neighbor and whoever to have a try. I let the wife fly the CF when it was wildly out of trim (my bad ), and it headed straight for the deck. I should retrim it and see how a fresh newbie does with it... maybe make a gondola to lower the CofG.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 08:47 PM
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Here you go - this sequence shows the newbie plowing into the floor under power and the resulting frame distortion and recovery. With the fiberglass bumper, you still get broken props but little else. Sure wouldn't have wanted to be that monkey however.

(see frames 5-8 enlarged to see the bounce)
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Last edited by hardlock; Apr 01, 2007 at 08:54 PM.
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 09:01 PM
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ya, that's a pretty hard hit
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 09:32 PM
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Here's the new wing - Can't do this with any other built-up wing....well, maybe once!
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 09:37 PM
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ok, you convinced me... when can I buy one?
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Old Apr 01, 2007, 10:25 PM
Fly it like you stole it..
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Florence, Al
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Neat looking bird..

KM is a sucker for carbon.. If you could get the following of the carbon falcon guys, you'd have a hit on your hands..
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 05:26 AM
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Maiden wring-out video

Finally got a short video posted in the lab page or direct from here:

http://www.acesim.com/rc/lab/carbon-prime-maiden.wmv

Wind is from the left at about 5. Watch for the speed run and outside loop.

Even with minimum dihedral and the pack on the wing root, it still has hands off stability and the "aileron" wing warping is very relaxed. I had a blast.
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardlock
Finally got a short video posted in the lab page or direct from here:
http://www.acesim.com/rc/lab/carbon-prime-maiden.wmv
Wind is from the left at about 5. Watch for the speed run and outside loop.
Even with minimum dihedral and the pack on the wing root, it still has hands off stability and the "aileron" wing warping is very relaxed. I had a blast.
Looking like a bundle of fun to me
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 03:56 PM
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BTW, that's running with a Komodo 2204-17 with 9x5 gws dd and 3S 820 packs right at the nose for about 1.6-7 to 1 power to weight ratio at 10 oz even AUW. Next tests will be to load it up with bigger packs and see if I can destroy it.
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 04:01 PM
Fly it like you stole it..
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VIdeo of those tests would be neat..
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