SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Apr 01, 2007, 07:25 PM
Flying motor mount master
fly_boy99's Avatar
San Jose, California, United States
Joined Oct 2004
8,745 Posts
Yep this is the hard part.

I believe most manufacturers terminate wye because it's easier.

I'll try and get a close to the same Kv and let her rip!!! Of course this
would be an outrunner experiment for now.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jfinch
Flyboy, just be sure to wind to the same Kv and fill the stator slots with wire.

I have found though (this is totally antadotal) that on very high Kv outrunners the Y terminated motors are more stable then the deltas but I wonder if it has more to do with the ESC then the motor. But for modest Kv (900 - 1800) I've not noticed any real difference between Y and delta and will wind based on the wire I have available.
fly_boy99 is offline Find More Posts by fly_boy99
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Apr 01, 2007, 08:05 PM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,359 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_boy99
Yep this is the hard part.

I believe most manufacturers terminate wye because it's easier.

I'll try and get a close to the same Kv and let her rip!!! Of course this
would be an outrunner experiment for now.


Delta winds are easier--after making just a few motors I am pretty sure I am right. With low turn Y motors you have to deal with a rather massive bundle of wire.

Deltas are far more common than Y terminations.

Your "test" is not needed--there is enough info in the text books.

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 01, 2007, 09:26 PM
Flying motor mount master
fly_boy99's Avatar
San Jose, California, United States
Joined Oct 2004
8,745 Posts
Thanks Steve but I'll do the test anyway thanks. You can keep
your books as I've seen enough myself to do the tests.

Books are not always right:
"
The description on the Aveox site includes a big mistake: the oversimplified text claims that Kv doubles delta vs wye. This is simply not true. Kv increases as sqrt3, it is not just theory but measurements result too.
I agree with Aveox in the claim that wye - considering proper load - slightly better in efficiency.
"
Most motors I see coming out of China which of course include some of your bretheren motor makers like Hacker, et all are mostly terminating Wye. Take a newbie in a factory and try and teach him wye versus delta termination. Guess which one will win?

Some more interesting reads for ya Steve:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=delta+easier

Have fun!
B

p.s. When I speak of max current I mean max current a motor can take. Yes this will be past the max eta of any motor but for example a motor wound with 2T of 16G/wye wire and a motor wound with 4T of 18G wire/delta the delta will carry more max current than the wye. As for any motor that stays within it's current carrying capacity delta vs wye is a moot discussion and only relates to Kv.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu
Delta winds are easier--after making just a few motors I am pretty sure I am right. With low turn Y motors you have to deal with a rather massive bundle of wire.

Deltas are far more common than Y terminations.

Your "test" is not needed--there is enough info in the text books.

Steve
fly_boy99 is offline Find More Posts by fly_boy99
Last edited by fly_boy99; Apr 01, 2007 at 09:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 01, 2007, 11:06 PM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,359 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_boy99
Thanks Steve but I'll do the test anyway thanks. You can keep
your books as I've seen enough myself to do the tests.

Books are not always right:
"
The description on the Aveox site includes a big mistake: the oversimplified text claims that Kv doubles delta vs wye. This is simply not true. Kv increases as sqrt3, it is not just theory but measurements result too.
I agree with Aveox in the claim that wye - considering proper load - slightly better in efficiency.
"
Most motors I see coming out of China which of course include some of your bretheren motor makers like Hacker, et all are mostly terminating Wye. Take a newbie in a factory and try and teach him wye versus delta termination. Guess which one will win?

Some more interesting reads for ya Steve:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=delta+easier

Have fun!
B

p.s. When I speak of max current I mean max current a motor can take. Yes this will be past the max eta of any motor but for example a motor wound with 2T of 16G/wye wire and a motor wound with 4T of 18G wire/delta the delta will carry more max current than the wye. As for any motor that stays within it's current carrying capacity delta vs wye is a moot discussion and only relates to Kv.
Come back when you have been to school! The text books were written by people that have just a bit more knowledge and experience than you

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 01, 2007, 11:38 PM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
1,763 Posts
And we digress...........

Hey guys,

I enjoyed reading all the input about the Wye versus Delta theories, many good points were made. However, to fulfill my promise that I made when I started the thread, I think it's time to steer this thread back on track to it's original purpose, which is to ask questions specifically pertaining to the use of Scorpion Motors and Speed Controllers.

For those of you that have been waiting for the 30mm motors, they are now in stock! Woo-Hoo! I just got back from the RCX show a few minutes ago, and we had a great time. Now that the show is over, I will have to take some time to post the motors up on our website. It looks like I have a BUNCH of prop testing to do!

Talk to you all later.

Lucien
Innov8tive is offline Find More Posts by Innov8tive
Site Sponsor
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 12:43 AM
Electric Hippy
Brisbane
Joined Nov 2005
2,372 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu
Come back when you have been to school! The text books were written by people that have just a bit more knowledge and experience than you

Steve
Where are your references? Even the 1st years here, know you have to reference.
Eagleburger is online now Find More Posts by Eagleburger
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 07:23 AM
Registered User
ukpaul's Avatar
Joined Aug 2006
743 Posts
Lucien,

What is your closest motor to a Precision Aerobatics Thrust 10 motor?

It's Specifications are...
Weight: 46g (ex bullet connectors)
Shaft diameter: 3mm
Dimensions: 26.5mm length x 28mm Diameter
KV rating: 930kv
Continues amp: 12A (ventilation is required)
Max amp: 15A /60 sec.
14 poles
ESC required: 18A

Performance with an APC 10x4.7 SF
12.1A
141W
6,825 RPM
900g / 31.8oz thrust

Link to it here

I bought one of PA's Electric Shock kits, this thing , from PA's UK dealer. The dealer does not stock the Thrust 10 motors though, so it ended up with an Axi 2212/26 on it I had spare.

The Axi lacks the impressive thrust that the Thrust 10 seems to produce in PA's vids of the Electric Shock, so I want to swop motors for one with more 'grunt', without weighing any more.
ukpaul is offline Find More Posts by ukpaul
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 07:49 AM
Registered User
Dr Kiwi's Avatar
Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States
Joined May 2003
27,206 Posts
And you believe these posted numbers? The Axi lacks the impressive thrust that the Thrust 10 seems to produce in PA's vids of the Electric Shock

Alleged Performance with an APC 10x4.7 SF
12.1A
141W
6,825 RPM
900g / 31.8oz thrust


I have tested the Axi 2212/26 and found it produced ~940g thrust at slightly higher rpm (7050rpm) with that prop. It needed a lot more input power though (169W) so one can only assume that this Thrust 10 is a far better made and more efficient motor than an Axi (yeah, right!). If however we take the Thrust 10 figures with the necessary grains of salt - the Axi will actually power your aircraft better!

The Scorpion 2215/22 produces numbers which are comparable with those for the Axi 2212/26, so, yes, there is a Scorpion which will do the job.
Dr Kiwi is offline Find More Posts by Dr Kiwi
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 09:00 AM
Registered User
ukpaul's Avatar
Joined Aug 2006
743 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Kiwi
And you believe these posted numbers? The Axi lacks the impressive thrust that the Thrust 10 seems to produce in PA's vids of the Electric Shock

Alleged Performance with an APC 10x4.7 SF
12.1A
141W
6,825 RPM
900g / 31.8oz thrust


I have tested the Axi 2212/26 and found it produced ~940g thrust at slightly higher rpm (7050rpm) with that prop. It needed a lot more input power though (169W) so one can only assume that this Thrust 10 is a far better made and more efficient motor than an Axi (yeah, right!). If however we take the Thrust 10 figures with the necessary grains of salt - the Axi will actually power your aircraft better!

The Scorpion 2215/22 produces numbers which are comparable with those for the Axi 2212/26, so, yes, there is a Scorpion which will do the job.
Am I correct in thinking you are saying that PA are lying about the Thrust 10's performance figures?
ukpaul is offline Find More Posts by ukpaul
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 10:10 AM
Registered User
Dr Kiwi's Avatar
Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States
Joined May 2003
27,206 Posts
I can't say that definitively, but I would just be surprised if the Thrust 10 were a far more "efficient" motor than an Axi. If it can get 7000rpm/900g from 140W, when an Axi needs ~160-170W, that indicates that the Thrust 10 is a lot more efficient.

I am only skeptical because I have seen too many "optimistic" thrust figures from manufacturers and distributors but, if you can prove to me that the Thrust 10 really is that much better than an Axi, I'm ready to be impressed.
Dr Kiwi is offline Find More Posts by Dr Kiwi
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 02:28 PM
Flying motor mount master
fly_boy99's Avatar
San Jose, California, United States
Joined Oct 2004
8,745 Posts
Sorry Lucien-

We'll put this thread back on track and let Steve have his usual arrogance.



B
fly_boy99 is offline Find More Posts by fly_boy99
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 02:30 PM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,359 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_boy99
Sorry Lucien-

We'll put this thread back on track and let Steve have his usual arrogance.



B

And your usual uninformed views

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Last edited by sneu; Apr 02, 2007 at 08:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 02:33 PM
Flying motor mount master
fly_boy99's Avatar
San Jose, California, United States
Joined Oct 2004
8,745 Posts
For posterity... by the way it's your



p.s. Besides I have no idea why you care if I conduct experiments
at all? You never wrote any books so who are you to talk theory?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu
And you usual ignorance

Steve
fly_boy99 is offline Find More Posts by fly_boy99
Last edited by fly_boy99; Apr 02, 2007 at 02:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 02:41 PM
bsc
Registered User
Royse City, TX
Joined Jan 2003
17 Posts
Just ordered a 2515-18 and 25amp ESC this morning, going to try it out on my Airfoilz Edge.
bsc is offline Find More Posts by bsc
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 02, 2007, 03:19 PM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,359 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly_boy99
For posterity... by the way it's your



p.s. Besides I have no idea why you care if I conduct experiments
at all? You never wrote any books so who are you to talk theory?
All you need to do is a Google search--you will find that one of the best books is : Brushless Permanent Magnet Motor Design It does cost real money($150)!

Your "tests" will only prove that you can generate heat

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Last edited by sneu; Apr 02, 2007 at 03:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
zagi advice, questions, answers easy2fly Foamies (Kits) 61 Dec 11, 2009 05:38 AM
Question HB UG's - LiPo, Motors - Questions iparaglide Micro Helis 5 Nov 24, 2003 08:39 PM
Tiny-X Building - Tips, Questions, Answers, and Pictures Manchild Parkflyers 264 Dec 09, 2002 09:25 PM
Tiny-X Building - Tips, Questions, Answers, and Pictures Manchild Batteries and Chargers 2 Oct 31, 2002 12:28 PM
Didel Questions and Answers Gordon Johnson Scratchbuilt Indoor and Micro Models 2 Sep 03, 2002 02:31 PM