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Old Oct 26, 2007, 08:50 AM
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Canada's East Coast, "An Ocean Playground"
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..sent email to Feldon Aircraft,
awaiting an answer.
Bill


to feldonaircraft(at)charter.net
Hello...as shown in the October '07 review on RCUniverse..it would appear that the Forte line of motors and escs are the products of Scorpion Performance. Can you confirm that Scorpion built these products.
thank you,
Bill
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 09:49 AM
bad speller extraordinair
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You will aslo note that the motor in the review is not the same as what is shown on the website. There is also a derth of information about the product there. I.e. there is more shown on the review than on the sales page.

Smells like a hack to me...

Clint
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 10:49 AM
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Thanks for your concern everyone. I have spoken with the Owner of Scorpion about the Forte line of products, and there is a very good explanation for this. Rest assured that there is no foul play involved, and no one is hacking anyones design. I will have more details later as soon as I get more information.

I should have more information in the next day or so, so just sit tight until I get the full story.

Thanks!

Lucien
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 10:49 AM
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Does anyone know a wind for a 2221 or 2116 that will get me 1800-2200 Kv??
I want to run 12 magnetic poles, so I can use less turns of thicker wire.

Can I order a 2221 kit with 12 magnets??
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 11:16 AM
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Canada's East Coast, "An Ocean Playground"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiky
I thought that the Scorpion line was exclusively distributed by Innov8tive
Mike

..would think this would apply to US only...but hey, I might be wrong, it happened ONCE before!

Bill
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 11:34 AM
bad speller extraordinair
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Bill,

"Distributed" is not the case as I purchase most of my Scorpion products from ramovan at www.rcdude.com, but he is selling "Scorpion" branded products. I only found out that Innov8tive existed after I had the first order.

(Personal plug - he's great with prices and shipping - someone recommended his store, and I'll keep passing it along)

It would appear that the concern is about the branding. And I may be splitting hairs here, no offense intended

- Clint
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 12:46 PM
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The Straight Scoop on Forte Motors and ESC's

OK Everyone, here is the deal.

I just got off the phone with the owner of Scorpion. He called me at 9:15 am Pacific time today, which with the 16 hour time difference, makes it Saturday morning at 1:15 am his time. That alone should say something about how much on top of things he is. We had a brief conversation, and he gave me all the details pertaining to this issue, so here is the story.

Just so you all know, the Scorpion company does make a wide variety of motors under different names for several other companies. Just like General Motors makes and distributes car brands like Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, GMC and Cadallic, the Scorpion company makes several different lines of motors. And just like Cadillac is the premier flagship brand of General Motors, the Scorpion brand motors are the premier flagship brand of Scorpion Precision Industries. There are many different grades of stator material available, as well as different grades of steel for the flux rings and different grades and temperature ratings for the magnets. The materials used in the Scorpion Motors are the best quality available, and always will be.

The Scorpion company also has more than one distributor, which should come a no surprise. Innov8tive Designs is the Exclusive US importer and distributor for all of the Scorpion products, and until a European distributor is found, we handle that part of the globe as well.

I am not going to name any names here, in the interest of keeping things clean, so that we are not accused of any "mud-slinging", so please bear that in mind and do not ask me to give any names. With that said, here are the details regarding the "Forte" brand Motors and ESC's.

The Scorpion Company was approached through one of their other distributors to produce motors and speed controllers for a kit company. A couple motor and speed controller samples were produced for test purposes, and provided to the distributor in plastic bag packaging to be given to the kit manufacturer for evaluation.

Someone then took the metal can packaging from a Scorpion motor and speed controller, painted over the Scorpion Logo, added a Forte logo, and then displayed the sample motor and speed controller in these packages for photographic and publicity purposes. Evidently, someone also lifted the text for the Scorpion brand motors from our website, modified it, and then presented it as their own, doing a very bad job of it I might add. All of this was done without the permission or knowledge of either the Scorpion Company or Innov8tive Designs.

As others have pointed out, after modifying the text, they left in things like "Gold anodizing", which does not apply to the Forte motor, and also left the word "Scorpion" in the text when refering to the speed controller, which made the entire excersise a dead giveaway. Additionally, the reference to the 200 C magnets is false, as these motors were built with lower temperature rated magnets.

The Scorpion Precision Industry Company has very high standards for it's distributors and clients, and requires that the details of it's production standards and the list of clients be held in the strictest of confidence to protect all parties involved. Obviously this issue was not handled in a way that is acceptable to the Scorpion Company.

Due to the very poor manner in which this entire situation has been handled, Scorpion has cancelled all contract negotiations with the company involved, and will not be producing any motors or speed controllers for them. Scorpion is very serious about maintaining the integrity of their company, and will not tolerate any actions like this by any of their distributors or affiliates.

Hopefully that explains the situation, and answers any questions that may be lingering in peoples minds regarding this incident. With that said, I would like to now put this entire thing behind us and move on to the discussion of Scorpion Motors and Speed Controllers once again.

Thanks you all for your support and understanding regarding this situation.

Sincerely,

Lucien Miller

Innov8tive Designs
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 01:06 PM
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A little further clarification regarding the Scorpion Brand

TucsonClint,

Innov8tive Designs is the exclusive US importer and distributor of all Scorpion products. All Scorpion Products sold in the United States come through us. We have a dealer network that consists of several hobby shops and web stores, with more being added each week. Some of our dealers include, in no particular order:

RC Dude
BMK Designs
Mountain Models
NeoPlanes
ReadyHeli
3DX Hobbies
Discount Hobby Warehouse
Micron Hobbies in the UK
HobbyTown
Hodges Hobbies
D&J Hobbies


These are all official recognized Scorpion product dealers in the Innov8tive Designs dealer network that have permission to sell Scorpion products, and also have permission to use any and all promotional material that is available on our website, or in any of our printed catalogs.

For the convienience of customers that do not have a local hobby shop nearby, or would like to order product directly from us, we also maintain a webstore to make the products available that way as well.

The consumers are free to purchase Scorpion products from us, or any one of our registered dealers as they see fit. As more and more Scorpion dealers come on board, the majority of the sales will be through our dealer network, and that is how the growth of the company is intended. Innov8tive Designs will always be here to answer customer questions, and provide warranty service, so there is nothing to worry about in that aspect.

I would hope that this clears up any questions that may have arisin regarding the sale and distributiopn of the Scorpion product line.

Thanks!

Lucien Miller

Innov8tive Designs
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 01:42 PM
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Tucson
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Lucien,

Semantics to us end users, though I take your point and clarification. Eloquently explained to what I meant.

To shift the topic slightly into more constructive directions - I've just put together a Carbon Falcon with a 2205-36 and 2S and 3S X-Caliber 1000mah 20C and used a stick mount in a new way.

The power to weight for this motor was perfect, and I'll post some pictures this weekend of the "constructive" mounting for anyone else who may encounter the need to shift the thrustline in a similar situation.

We're just fiercely loyal to a great product.

Clint
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 05:51 PM
I do it cause it's FUN!
Oak Ridge
Joined Jun 2007
198 Posts
Lucien,

Thanks for clearing that up, it was never my intention to 'stir' things up, I was simply curious and wondered if anyone had any comments.

There is no lack of good quality motors and ESC's available to the electric fanatic, the ONLY reason I buy the Scorpion Brand is because of you. The level of service you personally offer is I believe second to none and you will continue to have my business either directly or through my favorite Scorpion Web outlet, BMK Designs until thing change (which I doubt).

Mike
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 06:02 PM
M0unt@in M0del$ minion
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USA, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiky
Lucien,

Thanks for clearing that up, it was never my intention to 'stir' things up, I was simply curious and wondered if anyone had any comments.

There is no lack of good quality motors and ESC's available to the electric fanatic, the ONLY reason I buy the Scorpion Brand is because of you. The level of service you personally offer is I believe second to none and you will continue to have my business either directly or through my favorite Scorpion Web outlet, BMK Designs until thing change (which I doubt).

Mike
Mike at http://www.bmkdesigns.net/ is our local club Scorpion hero. He represents Scorpion well and really takes care of our club (AZ Wingnutz) members. There are lots of Scorpion resellers but look to Mike or Brian at http://www.mountainmodels.com/. Two of the absolute best dudes in R/C!

Joe
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Old Oct 26, 2007, 09:35 PM
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Canada's East Coast, "An Ocean Playground"
Joined Apr 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredVTT
..sent email to Feldon Aircraft,
awaiting an answer.
Bill


to feldonaircraft(at)charter.net
Hello...as shown in the October '07 review on RCUniverse..it would appear that the Forte line of motors and escs are the products of Scorpion Performance. Can you confirm that Scorpion built these products.
thank you,
Bill

reply received..

"Hello Bill

Our FORTE is no a scorpion maybe is with a similar characteristic
Regards
Luigi"


Bill
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Old Oct 27, 2007, 12:59 AM
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Shepherdstown, WV
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
I have had that exact same experience. Scorpion 45, DX7. I sent the controller back to Lucien to evaluate.

Lucien or feathermerchant,

Is there any update on the low power behavior of the 45amp scorpion esc used with a spektrum dx-7?

Also, what motor would you recommend for the 3D hobby shop 47' Extra 300 SHP? For this plane I would like to use my existing 3s 2100 and 2200 lipos. I want good to extreme 3d performance.

Here is the plane:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646632

No big rush on answering these questions Lucien, particularly if you are still dealing with the the fires. Glad to hear that you and yours apparently made it through in relatively good shape.

lcoggins
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Old Oct 27, 2007, 01:36 AM
Use the Force!
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San Marcos, CA
Joined Jan 2005
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lcoggins,

It could be a matter of the way that the DX7 radios take their time booting up when first turned on. I do not have a DX7 radio here, but perhaps I can find one of the local flyers that has one and would let me borrow it long enough to run some tests.

I did have a friend with a JR radio that had a similar problem, and we traced it to the throttle travel being set to 150%. This caused a pulse width that was too long for the ESC to understand whenever full throttle was used, and caused the ESC to go into the current protection mode, which gives 50% power.

Try this test, plug a servo into your throttle channel in place of the ESC. With the throttle stick at center position, adjust the servo arm so it points straight out from the servo. When you move the stick to idle, the servo should deflect around 40-45 degrees in one direction. Then, when you move the stick to full throttle, it should go to a position that is 40-45 degrees the other direction from center.

If the servo is traveling farther than this, you may need to check the travel volume or endpoint adjustments on the throttle channel.

If the throttle channel appears to be giving the proper output, you may need to calibrate the ESC throttle endpoints. To do this, first remove the prop from the motor for safety reasons. Next, turn on your tramsmitter with the throttle stick in the full throttle position, and then plug in your airplane battery. The ESC will emit a "Beep-Beep" tone. After you hear the tone, move the throttle stick to the idle position. A couple seconds later you will here the "Beep-Beep" tone again, followed by a "Dee-Doo" tone. Once this happens, the endpoints are calibrated. Now you can unplug the battery, reinstall the prop, and try the throttle to see if you get full power.


As far as a power recommendation goes for the 3D Hobby Shop 47' Extra 300 SHP, I would go with one of the Scorpion 3020 motors. You did not say what C rating your batteries are, so it is tough to say what max current you can pull. If 15 C, then 32-33 amps is max, and if 20C, then 42-44 amps is the max. I will give you figures for both situations.

The Extra 300 has a all up weight listed at 37-41 ounces, so lets figure 40 ounces as a nice round number. For Good 3D performance, you will want at least 1.7:1 thrust to weight, which would mean at least 68 ounces of thrust. For Extreme 3D, you will need 2:1 thrust to weight, which would mean 80 ounces of thrust. On 3-cells, a good prop will get you about 2 ounces of thrust per amp, so this is doable.

The new 3020-16 motor would be a good choice for a plane like this. With an APC 13x6.5E prop, you will have a 33 amp current draw on 3 cells, and get 69 ounces of static thrust. This would be acceptable for a 15C 2200 pack, as long as you limited full throttle operation to short bursts. With a 20C pack, you would have a bit more leeway on the throttle.

With the 20 C battery, you could also step up to an APC 14x7E prop. This prop will pull 38.5 amps on 3 cells, and will produce 76 ounces of thrust. So you could get very good performance with either of these props, with Good 3D from a 13x6.5E and Extreme 3D from the 14x7E prop.

If you want a little more power than that, and your batteries are up to the challange, then you could also go with the 3020-14 motor. It has a slightly higher Kv than the 3020-16 does, and will produce a bit more thrust, but at a higher current draw. With a 13x6.5E prop, the 3020-14 will pull 38 amps on 3 cells, for 72 ounces of thrust. Switching to a 14x7E prop will get you a current draw of 45 amps, with 81 ounces of thrust. This would be pushing a 20C 2200mah battery right to the limits, so I would not advise it, but tere are the numbers if you want to go that route.

For me, I think that I would go with the 3020-16 and the 14x7E prop, but only if you are running 20C batteries.

Hope that helps!


As far as the fires go, they did get pretty close, about 3 miles away, but stopped there. They have now receeded, so it looks like we are going to be OK. Thanks for your concern!

Lucien
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Old Oct 27, 2007, 10:14 AM
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
An un related question. I have a scorpion 45amp speed controller. Sometimes when I give full throttle input I do not get it at the motor. I have to pull the stick pack to zero throttle and then advance it to full again in order to get full throttle at the motor. I have a dx-7 radio and have set the endpoints based on instructions found on this thread. Any ideas?
lcoggins

First off I do not own any Scorpion ESC s so this may not be relative at all.

I do use CC Phoenix ESCs with a DX7 and like many others have programed a Throttle Lock using the Gear Switch. I found that this can confuse the CC controller if Auto Throttle calibration is used. CC has always recommended that with Auto Throttle calibration that you go to full throttle for a few seconds at the start of each flight. Some of us use more than 100% for the Throttle Lock programing and I believe that is what causes the problem.

Throttle lock on, battery connected, Auto Thro. Cal. is initialized at an invalid EPA (travel) point(s).

My solution has been to use Throttle Range Fixed and use the Thro. channel end point adjustment to tune the throttle range. With my setups this is -75 and + 75 . This gives me full smooth Throttle control from stopped to full power.

Charles
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