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Old May 02, 2007, 09:32 AM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
1,732 Posts
Louis,

Yes I can. Please understand that these motors are just prototypes, and as such, any specifictions are subject to change.

4020 - 280 grams, 9.88 ounces

4025 - 328 grams, 11.57 ounces

4035 - 488 grams, 17.21 ounces

4045 - 585 grams, 20.64 ounces

5545 - 1021 grams, 36.01 ouncs



Lucien
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Old May 03, 2007, 07:55 AM
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playntraffic's Avatar
Birmingham, AL
Joined Apr 2006
44 Posts
Lucien;

You mentioned posting prop data on the 30XX motors. Any update?

Mike
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Old May 03, 2007, 08:15 AM
Maryland
Joined Nov 2003
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yeah i'm lookin for that data too
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Old May 04, 2007, 12:46 PM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
1,732 Posts
Scorpion Motor Kits Are Now Available!

For those of you that have been patiently waiting for this day, it has now finally come! Woo-Hoo!!

I spoke with the owner of Scorpion last night, and the kits are being bagged up as we speak, and will be available for shipment at the end of next week.

These will be very complete kits, and will include everything you need to build a motor except for the wire. There will be 3 kit families available for sale now, these will include the 22mm motor kits, the 30mm motor kits, and the new HK22mm motor kits. The 22mm and 30mm kits are the same parts that the current production 22mm and 30mm motors are built from. These motors are based on a 12 pole stator assembly with 14 rotor magnets. The only difference is that there is no laser engraving on the flux ring, it is just plain black.

The HK22mm motor kits are the parts for the new HK22mm sereis of motors that will be released next week. These are the High KV motors that are designed for Helicopters and Ducted Fan use. The HK22mm motors are built on a 9 pole stator, and usually have 6 magnets installed. Depending on the wind used, these motors normally have a Kv in the 2500-3500 range, but you can make it anything you want!

Here is a photo of what is included in the 22mm motor kit.






In this photo, starting at the left, you will see the sets of curved magnets. To the right of that is the heatshrink for covering the motor leads, and the heatshrink for strain reliefs where the wires exit the rear case. Next is the cross style motor mount with mounting screws, and below that is the pair of shaft bearings. At the top right is the assembled flux ring, front housing and motor shaft, along with the retaining collar for the motor shaft. Finally, down in the bottom right corner is the stator, which is pre-stacked and powder coated and the rear housing/bearing holder assembly. You will just need to supply your own wire and labor to finish the motor.

Here is another photo, this one has the parts from a 30mm motor kit.





Once again you have all of the parts that were in the previous photo, the only exception is that the 30mm motors have 3 bearings on the shaft. One large bearing in the back and 2 smaller bearings at the front of the shaft.

I am still waiting on a photo of the HK22mm kotors, but it is basically the same as the regular 22mm motor, just with a 9-pole stator assembly.

As an introductory offer, anyone that places a kit order during the month of May will receive a 20% discount off the regular retail kit price. The kits are on order, and will arrive around the 15th of May. They will be shipping out shortly after that, so everyone that places an order will have to wait a maximum of around 2 weeks to get their kits.

Here are the retail prices for each of the motor kits, along with the 20% discount price.

S2205 KIT: $22.99, 20% discount price $18.39

S2208 KIT: $23.99, 20% discount price $19.19

S2212 KIT: $32.99, 20% discount price $26.39

S2215 KIT: $35.99, 20% discount price $28.79

HK2208 KIT: $28.99, 20% discount price $23.19

HK2213 KIT: $34.99, 20% discount price $27.99

HK2216 KIT: $37.99, 20% discount price $30.39

HK2221 KIT: $41.99, 20% discount price $33.59

S3008 KIT: $35.99, 20% discount price $28.79

S3014 KIT: $43.99, 20% discount price $35.19

S3020 KIT: $53.99, 20% discount price $43.19

S3026 KIT: $63.99, 20% discount price $51.19

S3032 KIT: $73.99, 20% discount price $59.19


The kits will be added to the website later on this evening, so by tomorrow, Saturday May 5th, you will be able to place orders. The prices that will be shown on the on the website will reflect the 20% discount, and these prices will be adjusted back to the normal retail levels on June 1st.

I will be posting this thread over in the Electric Motor Design and Construction thread, since that is where it actually belongs, so please place any comments you have over in that thread. Here is a link to that one. Scorpion Motor Kit Thread.

Have fun!

Lucien
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Old May 05, 2007, 01:31 PM
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Dr Kiwi's Avatar
Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States
Joined May 2003
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In search of understanding

An RC Groups member asked me what 40g motor might get him 30oz with a 9x4.7 APC SF. I came up with a couple (Komodo 2208-08 and Hacker A20-26M) but while searching for these data I looked at the equivalent Scorpion (2208/34 and 2208/30) - Lucien's data sheets indicated that these could manage about 18oz-22oz on 3s. I haven't tested the one Scorpion I have (2208/34) with a 9x4.7 APC SF but I have run the Komodo, the Hacker and the Scorpion 2208/34 with a 9x5 GWS HD - so I thought I could plot that comparison (watts/rpm).

[I don't have exactly equivalent data for thrust with the 9x5 GWS HD since the Hacker was tested a long time ago on an older stand - the Komodo (new stand) generated 28.66oz @ 8730rpm, so it is clear that the Hacker @ 9300rpm would have been generating considerably more than that. The Scorpion (new stand) generated 24.58oz @ 8260rpm].

Here is my question: for motors of similar weight, and roughly the same Kv, with exactly the same prop, intuitively one would expect that amp draw would correspond to Kv - in a series such as I have here (3 motors), the highest Kv motor should draw the most, the lowest Kv motor should draw the least. I suppose one would also expect that, at the same voltage, the highest Kv motor should generate the highest rpm (unless excessive prop load, "bogged it down").

However this is not the case - at WOT at 10.9v, the 1130Kv Hacker (15.20A/167W) drew quite a bit more than the 1150Kv Komodo (13.15A/142W), and both of them drew a LOT more than the 1206Kv Scorpion (11.50A/125W). The Scorpion curve falls off appreciably at the higher input (bogging down/heating effect?) whereas the other two don't show it as much.

I guess it has to do with winding wire quality and stator material, but I am no expert. Any and all explanations appreciated.

Cheers, Phil
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Old May 05, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Fourdan's Avatar
Antony (France)
Joined Sep 2003
2,946 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Kiwi
An RC Groups member asked me what 40g motor might get him 30oz with a 9x4.7 APC SF. I came up with a couple (Komodo 2208-08 and Hacker A20-26M) but while searching for these data I looked at the equivalent Scorpion (2208/34 and 2208/30) - Lucien's data sheets indicated that these could manage about 18oz-22oz on 3s. I haven't tested the one Scorpion I have (2208/34) with a 9x4.7 APC SF but I have run the Komodo, the Hacker and the Scorpion 2208/34 with a 9x5 GWS HD - so I thought I could plot that comparison (watts/rpm).

[I don't have exactly equivalent data for thrust with the 9x5 GWS HD since the Hacker was tested a long time ago on an older stand - the Komodo (new stand) generated 28.66oz @ 8730rpm, so it is clear that the Hacker @ 9300rpm would have been generating considerably more than that. The Scorpion (new stand) generated 24.58oz @ 8260rpm].

Here is my question: for motors of similar weight, and roughly the same Kv, with exactly the same prop, intuitively one would expect that amp draw would correspond to Kv - in a series such as I have here (3 motors), the highest Kv motor should draw the most, the lowest Kv motor should draw the least. I suppose one would also expect that, at the same voltage, the highest Kv motor should generate the highest rpm (unless excessive prop load, "bogged it down").

However this is not the case - at WOT at 10.9v, the 1130Kv Hacker (15.20A/167W) drew quite a bit more than the 1150Kv Komodo (13.15A/142W), and both of them drew a LOT more than the 1206Kv Scorpion (11.50A/125W). The Scorpion curve falls off appreciably at the higher input (bogging down/heating effect?) whereas the other two don't show it as much.

I guess it has to do with winding wire quality and stator material, but I am no expert. Any and all explanations appreciated.

Cheers, Phil
Hi Phil
I have only tested the Scorpions 2208-34 and 2208-30
My measurements lead to
S 2208-34 Kv = 1150 rpm/V
S 2208-30 Kv = 1292 rpm/V
So it seems that, on the paper, the three motors are close.
It will be good if a same tester (you Phil for example) with the same instruments, same ESC and the same method could measure the principal parameters, no load

1) Internal resistance @ same temperature (could be 20C), short test.
2) Under 10.9 V stab PS (or any value close to the test under prop)
2) With the same ESC
2) With the same time duration (after 30 seconds for example)
rpmo, Io
Then we have figures to try to respond your question.

Anyway I am considering that the 9x5 GWS is a hot load for all three motors.
So heating effect is sure. The problem could be also a running time difference maybe between different tests?
Regards
Louis
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Old May 05, 2007, 03:26 PM
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Dr Kiwi's Avatar
Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States
Joined May 2003
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Running time for my standard series for each motor would have been essentially the same.

If 9x5 GWS HD is too much of a load (especially for the Scorpion 2208/34 which seems to be suffering the most) why would 10x4.7 APC SF and 11x7 GWS HD be recommended for it [and that is for 3s]!

FYI: I calculated 1153Kv for the 2208/34!
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Old May 05, 2007, 04:21 PM
ramovan's Avatar
United States, NV, Pahrump
Joined Aug 2004
859 Posts
Power Systems Recommendations - Hyperion Yak-55

Lucien, Dr. Kiwi, Fourdan, Everybody

I would like to create a build log thread on the Hyperion Yak-55 "10e" with a Scorpion power system and X-Caliber batteries. This would be a great plane for the hanger - it looks incredible and the quality is the best I've seen. I also want to test all of these products as I do sell them and want to get some hands-on real-world experience with each of them.

I would like everyone's opinion on what Scorpion power system would be the best fit for this plane. I'm looking for 3D performance and you should probably know that I do like to over-power my models a bit.


Hyperion Yak-55 10e Airplane Specs:
Length: 806 mm (31.7")
Width: 980 mm (38.6")
Wing Area: 17.3 dm2 (268 sq. inch)
Kit Weight: 340 g (12 oz)
Flying Weight: 660 g (23.5 oz.)
Suggested Motor: HP-Z3007-26
Suggested ESC: HP-TITAN-30P
http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/Detail?no=153

My initial thoughts for power:
Esc: Scorpion 35A - 45A
Motor: Scorpion 3008 or 3014 Series
Battery: X-caliber 1800 - 2200mah 3-cell 11.1v
Prop: APC 9x4.5 - APC 10x6

I would really appreciate anyone's opinion on the best power system. I want lots of power, but I do have to be concerned about the weight of the motor as I don't want to be forced to add weight in the tail for proper CG. After the build is completed I'll fly it and hopefully get some video so we'll see how it turns out.
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Old May 05, 2007, 05:37 PM
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Fourdan's Avatar
Antony (France)
Joined Sep 2003
2,946 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramovan
Lucien, Dr. Kiwi, Fourdan, Everybody

I would like to create a build log thread on the Hyperion Yak-55 "10e" with a Scorpion power system and X-Caliber batteries. This would be a great plane for the hanger - it looks incredible and the quality is the best I've seen. I also want to test all of these products as I do sell them and want to get some hands-on real-world experience with each of them.

I would like everyone's opinion on what Scorpion power system would be the best fit for this plane. I'm looking for 3D performance and you should probably know that I do like to over-power my models a bit.
Hyperion Yak-55 10e Airplane Specs:
Length: 806 mm (31.7")
Width: 980 mm (38.6")
Wing Area: 17.3 dm2 (268 sq. inch)
Kit Weight: 340 g (12 oz)
Flying Weight: 660 g (23.5 oz.)
Suggested Motor: HP-Z3007-26
Suggested ESC: HP-TITAN-30P
http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/Detail?no=153

My initial thoughts for power:
Esc: Scorpion 35A - 45A
Motor: Scorpion 3008 or 3014 Series
Battery: X-caliber 1800 - 2200mah 3-cell 11.1v
Prop: APC 9x4.5 - APC 10x6

I would really appreciate anyone's opinion on the best power system. I want lots of power, but I do have to be concerned about the weight of the motor as I don't want to be forced to add weight in the tail for proper CG. After the build is completed I'll fly it and hopefully get some video so we'll see how it turns out.
Hi Ramovan
HP Z 3007-26 : following ACW
75 g 1240 rpm/V 0.060 ohm Io = 1.8 A @ ??? V
It is between
S 2215-18 :
63 g 1131 rpm/V 0.097 ohm Io = 0.75 A @ 11.1V
S 3008-28 :
86 g 1253 rpm/V 0.072 ohm Io = 1.5 A @ 11.1 V
Now the prop:
No indication on the original plane + Hyperion

A cool solution
S 3008-28 + GWS HD 8x6 static thrust 850 g (>plane)
pitch speed 28.3 m/s I = 21-22 A
That is 10 C max for 2200 mAh
APC E 8x6 is roughly the same, just a little hotter

If you go higher APC 9x4.5 E, GWS 9x5 , APC E 9x4.5, APC 9x6 E it is OK but you have the risk to go to 11-12 C.
Personnally I stop @ 8-10 C
Your packs 1800-2200 could say "thanks to choose a 8x6"
Good exercise with Scorpion Calc, (but there is no APC E 10x6 for now in the library ! To be added later)
Louis
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Old May 05, 2007, 06:12 PM
Registered User
Near Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Joined Dec 2004
382 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramovan
Lucien, Dr. Kiwi, Fourdan, Everybody

I would like to create a build log thread on the Hyperion Yak-55 "10e" with a Scorpion power system and X-Caliber batteries. This would be a great plane for the hanger - it looks incredible and the quality is the best I've seen. I also want to test all of these products as I do sell them and want to get some hands-on real-world experience with each of them.

I would like everyone's opinion on what Scorpion power system would be the best fit for this plane. I'm looking for 3D performance and you should probably know that I do like to over-power my models a bit.


Hyperion Yak-55 10e Airplane Specs:
Length: 806 mm (31.7")
Width: 980 mm (38.6")
Wing Area: 17.3 dm2 (268 sq. inch)
Kit Weight: 340 g (12 oz)
Flying Weight: 660 g (23.5 oz.)
Suggested Motor: HP-Z3007-26
Suggested ESC: HP-TITAN-30P
http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/Detail?no=153

My initial thoughts for power:
Esc: Scorpion 35A - 45A
Motor: Scorpion 3008 or 3014 Series
Battery: X-caliber 1800 - 2200mah 3-cell 11.1v
Prop: APC 9x4.5 - APC 10x6

I would really appreciate anyone's opinion on the best power system. I want lots of power, but I do have to be concerned about the weight of the motor as I don't want to be forced to add weight in the tail for proper CG. After the build is completed I'll fly it and hopefully get some video so we'll see how it turns out.
Interesting. I have just bought the Hyperion YAK55-25E and have a Scorpion 3026-10 to put in it. I think that will be more than enough for unlimited vertical performance. I will let you know how it works out.

Dave
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Old May 05, 2007, 06:26 PM
ramovan's Avatar
United States, NV, Pahrump
Joined Aug 2004
859 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourdan
A cool solution
S 3008-28 + GWS HD 8x6 static thrust 850 g (>plane)
pitch speed 28.3 m/s I = 21-22 A
That is 10 C max for 2200 mAh
APC E 8x6 is roughly the same, just a little hotter

If you go higher APC 9x4.5 E, GWS 9x5 , APC E 9x4.5, APC 9x6 E it is OK but you have the risk to go to 11-12 C.
Personnally I stop @ 8-10 C
Your packs 1800-2200 could say "thanks to choose a 8x6"
Good exercise with Scorpion Calc, (but there is no APC E 10x6 for now in the library ! To be added later)
Louis
I think I would stick with the 30mm series motors as I think the 22mm wouldn't put out the "over-power" I'm looking for. Scorpion-Calc shows ~39oz of thrust with an APC8x6 which I think is right where I want to be. I will be using either 15C or 20C Lipos. I prefer APC props but I would consider the GWS since I see that they are now black in color. No way I'm putting an orange prop on an airplane this sexy. BTW with the Hyperion power system they suggest an APC9x4.5E or APC10x5E prop.

Thanks for the suggestions - keep 'em coming!
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Last edited by ramovan; May 05, 2007 at 06:50 PM.
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Old May 05, 2007, 06:41 PM
ramovan's Avatar
United States, NV, Pahrump
Joined Aug 2004
859 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 376782
Interesting. I have just bought the Hyperion YAK55-25E and have a Scorpion 3026-10 to put in it. I think that will be more than enough for unlimited vertical performance. I will let you know how it works out.

Dave
Yes, please let us know how the Scorpion works out in the larger Yak-55. The flying weight of that model is 39-42oz. The Scorpion 3026-10 with an APC12x6 prop on a 3-cell lipo calculates to 76oz of thrust! If you get anywhere near that the plane will have ridiculous power!!!
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Old May 05, 2007, 09:01 PM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
1,732 Posts
A couple power options

ramovan,

The power system requirements depend on whether you want good 3D performance or INSANE 3D performance. I consider good 3D performance having around 1.6 to 1.8 thrust to weight ratio so you can hover at 2/3 throttle. Insane 3D performance would be a thrust to weight ratio of more than 2:1 and possinly 2.2 or 2.3 to 1, so you can hover at 1/2 throttle and have a lot of punch when you hit the throttle.

The specs give a kit weight of 12 ounces and a flying weight of 23.5 ounces, so we have 11.5 ounces to work with for the power system, receiver and servos. If you use 4 servos at around 10 grams each plus a micro receiver at 10 grams, you have used up 2 ounces with radio gear leaving 9.5 ounces for Motor, ESC and Battery. It will be close, but I think that it will take 11 ounces to get the power system we need.

The Scorpion 3008 motors weighs 3 ounces, and would be about the minimum power for a plane of this size to get good performance. I ran the 3008-32 on my test stand with an APC 10x5E prop with my power supply set to 10.5 volts. I measured 17.6 amps of current for 185 watts with 8725 RPM and 37 ounces of static thrust. This would give you 1.5 to 1 thrust to weight, and fly quite a while on a 2200mah battery pack. The plane would fly with this combo, but at only 92 watts per pound, the 3D would be a little lacking.

Switching to the 3008-28 motor, with it's hotter wind, will get you more power. Again, with the 10x5E APC prop the numbers were up quite a bit. Now I was getting 9225 RPM and 42 ounces of thrust, with a current draw of 22.9 amps for 240 watts of power. Now at a 23.5 ounce flying weight, our thrust to weight ratio is 1.79 to 1, and we are at a hair over 120 watts per pound. This would put the plane in what I would consider good 3D range. The current draw would be fine for a 15C or 20C 2200mah Li-Po pack and would give 6-7 minutes of continuous hard 3D flight or 10-12 minutes of sport flying.

An X-Caliber 2200mah 3-cell 20C pack weighs 6.5 ounces and the motor weighs 3 ounces. A Scorpion 35 amp ESC will add another 1.1 ounces bringing the total power system weight to 10.6 ounces. If we add back in the 12 ounce weight of the kit and 2 ounces of radio gear we are at 24.6 ounces, just 1 ounce over the projected weight. Not too bad, and we could probably shave off a little weight by using lighter 8 gram servos and get the weight down to 24 ounces even.

Moving up into the INSANE performance level would take us into the 3014 series of motors. The only one I would consider for this plane would be the lower Kv 3014-18. The 3014-18 motor is a little more efficient than the 3008 motors are due to the longer stator. With the same 10x5E APC prop you will draw about the same current as the 3008-28 motor, but will get a little more thrust due to the higher efficiency.

If you move up to an APC 11x5.5 prop, the current draw will go up to about 28 amps, but the thrust will also go up to about 52 ounces. The 3014 weighs about 1-1/4 ounce more than the 3008, but it will have the capability of putting out almost 50% more power, so it is a good tradeoff. This will give you a flying weight of around 25.5 ounces with the 3-cell 2200mah pack and the 35 amp ESC, but the power to weight ratio will be around 2.1 to 1.

For sport flying with the same plane, a 10x7 prop would be a good choice. It will still get you 44 ounces of thrust, but will have a higher top end speed and a lower current draw of around 25 amps.

So in the end, If it were my plane, I would go with the 3014-18 motor, with a 35 amp ESC and a 20C 2200mah 3-cell X-Caliber Li-Po battery. This combination gives you the most versatility, since by changing the prop, you can get 3 very different power settings.

With a 10x5E prop, you draw about 22-23 amps and get 42-42 ounces of thrust for easy Sunday Sport flying.

Step up to an 10x7E prop, and you draw 25-26 amps and get 44 ounces of thrust, plus about a 30% increase in top speed 60 MPH vs 45 MPH

When you are feeling a little crazy, strap on an 11x5.5 prop. You will draw 28-29 amps and get 52-53 ounces of thrust for great 3D performance.

So there you go. The final choice is up to you, but I vote for the 3014-18 motor.

Lucien
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Old May 05, 2007, 09:19 PM
M0unt@in M0del$ minion
turbojoe's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2002
7,232 Posts
Lucien,

Do you have a motor suitable for the T-Rex 450 yet? I'm VERY happy with the motor and ESC I've bought so far. It'd be nice to have a Scorpion motor on one (or both) of my T-Rex's.

Joe
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Old May 05, 2007, 10:11 PM
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manuel v's Avatar
Mexico, BC, Mexicali
Joined Aug 2004
5,192 Posts
Ramovan.


This airplane with a weight from 22,2 to 24,7 oz. would have a stall speed of 18.mph and could fly with one speed prop pitch of 36-52 mph. depending on the application.
For application of 3d with 150% of its weight in thrust. it would be sufficient. and he is 1000g. or 35.24oz.

for GWS 10x6 8400rpm minimum, 47mph., 190W, 1000g thrust, you need minimum:

Any motor off 2.5 oz, 71g end up. with 1142Kv. and around 70% eff.
o 1066kv and around 75% eff.


for APC 11x5.5 and 7180 rpm minimum, 37.5 mph., 170W, 1000g thrust, you need minimum:

Any motor off 2.26 oz, 64g end up. with 976Kv. and around 70% eff.
o 911kv and around 75% eff.

s3008-32, is a good choice.
but also 2215-18 light choice with 10x6 GWS.
and 2215-22 for 11x5.5 APCe.

one s3008 with lower Kv. is best. maybe one S3008-34 (only in KIT)


Manuel V.
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