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Old Feb 24, 2007, 05:25 AM
Keep'em Spinning High!
DeliriousIntent's Avatar
Miami Florida
Joined Feb 2007
318 Posts
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Upgrading the Blade CP Pro to Brushless

I wanted to share my experience with my first upgrade to the Blade CP Pro (BCPP) with a G90 HH gyro. First off I would like to explain I personaly love this micro helicopter. I curently have 3 BCPP's ready to fly(RTF) and enough parts for 2-3 more, and suprisingly this is my first upgrade from stock parts. I'm some what of an agresive flyer and can do some 3D manuvers. I've been an occasional flyer for the last 10+ years with my Shuttle nitro fuled helicopter, but the price and avalibilty of parts for the BCPP really got me intrested into flying again. I just recently joined RC Groups and found a whole new world of information about my hobby and it really kick started my enthusiasm for it. So a couple days ago I ordered the following items for micro heli number four.....

Main motor
Park 370 Brushless Inrunner Motor, 4100Kv (EFLM1000)
25-Amp Pro Brushless ESC (EFLA1025)
Heat Sink, 12x20mm: Park 370 Inrunner (EFLM1911) (using 2, motor is 30x20mm)

Tail motor (reports on this in a later post)
GWS CN12-RXC Motor (2)
GWS CN12 Motor Heat Sink (2)
10-Amp Micro ESC (EFLA104)
GWS 3.25x2 Propeller (6)

and also little extra power (over kill)
2200mAh 3S 12C Li-Po Battery 12C (PKZ1030)

Well UPS was nice to me and delivered the parts early today. I quickly checked the invoice to make sure everything was there. Then I started putting together a new airframe from my extra parts. I had a little trouble trying to figure out how to put it all to gether at first, because I wanted to do the DD upgrade but havent recieved the parts yet. So I did the quick dual motor upgrade and put it all together. Since I was changing the electronics compleatly I decided to mount it all under the body on the battery tray for testing. As soon as I got a simple build together I took it out for a quick test flight just before dark, and all I can say is......

Molly Brap, Cat Han! WOW!!!

What a major improvement! Had a bit of trouble at first getting the trim worked out, but soon enough I had it stable enough for a quick test flight. I only had the chance to fly it for a few minutes before it was too dark to fly it safely. But I am definalty impressed with the performance improvement. I actualy had that first flight fright with the changes in performace.

On the motor, I installed the 10 pinion gear and the flush mounting ring it came with. I used a medium sized C-clamp to carefuly mount the pinion after soaking it in boiling water for a minute, then putting a dab of solder on the end to make sure it's secure. Took a spare 3 in 1 ESC with RX and seporated the RX from it, don't need the ESC, only the RX, since I have a new ESC for each motor. I then put the 25A ESC for the main motor on the electronics tray, and routed the throtle and power leads under and around to the back. I wanted to keep as much mass off the electronics tray as posible because the stock body can flex, and with plastic gears that can be too stressful for them. This later turned out to be a good idea and I found out how much more power it really has. I also used a second battery block off of another spare battery tray, and mounted it on the back side of the new airframe battery tray. I also mounted the RX and 10A ESC for the tail motor to the rear tray. I soldered a power mutliplexer together with male and female ends for both the JST and the EC3 power leads to tie the power on the ESC's and the battery together.

I originaly wanted to build this with the Direct Drive upgrade but thoes parts were comming from another store and are not expected till next week. I'll be sure to add comments about the DD tail upgrade in a later post. I couldn't wait to try this new brushless motor setup so I decided to quickly build a dual motor upgrade instead. So with a little triming with the dremmel and some quick solder work, I was able to build the dual motor upgrade really quick from some spare parts. I soldered the two motors together with the positives pointing twards each other and used the can case as a common ground to make wiring easier. Finaly after I was done with the build and ready for testing, as I always do with any major rebuild or modification, I put the training gear back on. Good thing too. I was not expecting the improvement in it's responce and preformance. Could have easily tiped it over.

The brushless motor upgrade makes a major improvement in it's performance. Aerobatic control is alot closer to my nitro now, but of course thats a much larger class. It increased it's lift to well over 800 grams. Thats alot for a 300 gram helicopter. I had a large C-clamp and a pair of Visegrip plyers (each weigh 340g) straped to the skids and a 160g 2200mAh battery pack(totaling over 1100g), and it was still able to hop up on the training gear and drag itself around on the floor. The Dual Motor upgrade greatly increases the power and speed from the tail but it still has the stick in the mud response from the gear drive. But power and speed it does have! It broke the support stick and snaped a blade in half after a kick back while hovering on the ground.

First flight was actualy a dissapointmet in a few areas, but overall I am glad I did upgrade my machine. It's alot more louder then before with the extra torque and head speeds. Too much for night flying in my neiborhood. The stock BCPP is quiet enough for me to fly in my neighborhood in the evenings and at night. The new 2200mAh battery pack is definatly too heavy for 3D, but it does balence out the airframe very nicely while hovering and in forward flight. The large mass is really noticable and alot harder to throw around. The improvement in responce and power with the new BL motor still gives it fair control.

You can not use the stock 11.1v 3 cell packs with this motor. They do not have a high enough output rating for the current draw required for this motor. I will have to look into another pack around the 1Ah to 1200mAh range to balence it out a little better anyways.

The bigest dissapointment is the effect on the stock main shaft & gear and stock chassis. Chewed up 2 main shafts on the first battery. The first one I ate up was during load tests before it's first flight, but I was really stressing it hard. A quick swap with a new one and I was ready for a test flight. I ended up eating the second one doing a really hard bank to the left in a forward roll. Landed and checked the machine for wear and any stress damage. Aside from it eating the tips of the teeth on the main gears there was no noticable wear or damage. But it sure was alot of fun before I got reckless. I didn't crash but you can hear the nosie from the wear to the teeth in the main gear. It started getting too dark for any real flying with it, so I put it up for the night.

After seeing the improvement from a small BL motor I am now seriously thinking about making a modified build for an agressive micro 3D machine for fun fly's. Need to think about a suitable light upgrade for the main body, shaft and head for a really agresive 3D build. I know I will still fly the stock BCPP's around the yard, they are still easier and quieter. But the brushless motor upgrade definatly opend my eyes to an even more fun machine to play with.

I've included some pictures. I use florecent colors for my night flights in the back yard, and I used some of the spare parts from the night birds to build the BL setup. The 10A ESC is wraped with velcro and mounted infront of the RX. The wiring is a nasty mess, but what do you want for a rushed test build, at least it's out of the way.

I fly for fun, not shows.
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Old Feb 24, 2007, 08:43 AM
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Austin, TX
Joined Sep 2005
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Sounds like a fun upgrade!

Having gone brushless with my Honey Bee CP2 (virtually a twin to the BCPP) I can offer some tips:

The 10T pinion on a 4100kv motor is probably getting into the danger zone for a plastic head. If you are still using the stock transmitter, you are probably getting into the 2900 rpm range! I'd recommend an 8T or 9T. Check out this online calculator to see various configurations: http://dhrc.rchomepage.com/calc.htm

Try a smaller battery. I fly my brushless CP2 with an Apex 850 (15c) pack. It has plenty of output to handle the ARC 20-34-110 motor I use, and gives me 10 minutes of spirited forward flight and basic acro. If I use a TP1320 (still much lighter than your packs) I can really tell the difference in handling, and the tail motor(s) really strain to counteract the increased pitch required to lift that weight.

Ditch those JST connectors! They are only rated for 3 amps, so odds are you're going to melt them pretty soon with your current brushless setup.

I have flown my CP2 at weights up to 388 grams, but the closer to 300 grams you can keep it, the better it flies.

And the most important tip of all: Have fun!

-Chris
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Old Feb 24, 2007, 09:41 AM
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uglyplane's Avatar
San Diego,Ca, USA
Joined Aug 2000
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Hi Chris,
I have seen many of your posts and amazing videos. You really have these micro helis down pat. I'm kind of in a quandary right now. I flew a Corona fp for 1.5 years and have a modded BCX. I'm basically bored with all of these machines and have been thinking about making the jump to a Trex SE. As I'm living in temporary housing for 3months, my RC stuff is inaccessable so the Trex is off in the future when I can get to my radios and electronics.
I'm thinking the BCPP is a possibility with some sensible upgrades or the Axe cp. These appeal as the prices are great, they look capable and fairly cheap to fix, what are your thoughts on this?
thanks, Bill

BTW, I was your neighbor 2 years ago, I lived in Round Rock and lived at Discount Hobbies in Georgetown...
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Old Feb 24, 2007, 02:20 PM
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Austin, TX
Joined Sep 2005
11,505 Posts
Hey Bill!

I don't know much about the Axe CP. It seems to get favorable reviews from owners, but the parts prices seem pretty high to me.

The Blade CP Pro looks like a great deal for someone like you who needs something to fly in a pinch, even if left totally stock. And in reality, the BCPP (or my CP2) is actually harder to fly than a T-Rex, so once you master that little guy the T-Rex will be a piece of cake.

-Chris
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 12:53 AM
Keep'em Spinning High!
DeliriousIntent's Avatar
Miami Florida
Joined Feb 2007
318 Posts
Direct Drive tail motor upgrade.

Well I got even luckier today with a Saturday delivery. The parts to complete the Direct Drive upgrade finaly arived.

GWS CN12-RXC Motor (2)
GWS CN12 Motor Heat Sink (2)
GWS 3.25x2 Propeller

After installing it as a tractor setup and testing it out on a stock BCPP, I find the responsivness is very nice but the speed is lacking due to the size of the EP3020 blades. The gyro locks very easily and has a much better response. It also sounds more like a 2-cylinder engin running as it fluxes in control with a high gyro athority. It also balences out the airframe buch better then with the dual motor upgrade.

I like to fly with my tail trim set a bit off to the left. This way I am reminded how hard I can turn to the left in the manuvers. With my style of flying I am very sensitive to the responce of the tail. With the dual motor upgrade I can reach higher speeds in the turns but the response is only slightly faster then a single stock motor.

With the direct drive upgrade I have much faster response but the EP3020 prop I am using just can't push enough for my liking. The tail will drift off fast if I hit the colective hard. I need to get a slightly larger prop and test it again. In the mean time I will stick with the dual motor upgrade and take it easy again.

Any sugestions to what size prop I should try with the direct drive? The EP3020 just doesn't seem to have enough thrust, and I don't want to over load the motor with a prop thats too large.
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 01:24 AM
Team Mulikow
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Manila, Philippines
Joined Oct 2006
9,564 Posts
The 0320 prop is the best for this motor. Go bigger and you have problems with the motor. Take it or leave it. Perhaps it is time for a Compy 300.
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 11:00 AM
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uglyplane's Avatar
San Diego,Ca, USA
Joined Aug 2000
2,756 Posts
Thanks for the quick reply Chris,
The BCPP has a lot of appeal because the local HT sells and supports them, so no long wait for expensive parts. Also, they are a known quantity.
A few more questions:

Are there enough upgrades (that work) to give you a solid tail and a long lasting tail motor(s)

Does the available hh gyro work well?

How about the eFlite bl motor, worth getting?

Is the heli real fragile? (on that subject, is there an upgrade frame/skid available?)

I saw your fp heli in the wind, so I'm sure the BCPP will handle some too?

Do you have links to your videos?

Does the BCPP have the sticky collective issue?

Sorry for all of the questions, but I really want to get something in the air soon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlaneChris
Hey Bill!

I don't know much about the Axe CP. It seems to get favorable reviews from owners, but the parts prices seem pretty high to me.

The Blade CP Pro looks like a great deal for someone like you who needs something to fly in a pinch, even if left totally stock. And in reality, the BCPP (or my CP2) is actually harder to fly than a T-Rex, so once you master that little guy the T-Rex will be a piece of cake.

-Chris
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 07:08 PM
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JustPlaneChris's Avatar
Austin, TX
Joined Sep 2005
11,505 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyplane
Are there enough upgrades (that work) to give you a solid tail and a long lasting tail motor(s)
Well.... that's the only real issue with these little guys. In my experience, dual tail motors are fairly solid, and last a long time.
Quote:
Does the available hh gyro work well?
Honestly, unless you plan to do a lot of backwards flight, I'd stick with the stock gyro in the 3-in-1. Especially if you have a computer radio where you can mix in some REVO, I find that it actually does better for holding during hard collective changes than the HH gyro.
Quote:
How about the eFlite bl motor, worth getting?
I have no experience with that motor, but can highly recommend the ARC 20-34-110 with a 9T pinion from www.lightflightrc.com, paired with a Phoenix 10. It's such a light motor and ESC that you'll actually lose a gram or two during the conversion compared to the stock motor.
Quote:
Is the heli real fragile? (on that subject, is there an upgrade frame/skid available?)
Kinda fragile, yes. Try to avoid the temptation to "beef up" the heli. The lighter they are, the better they fly (and the softer they crash!)
Quote:
I saw your fp heli in the wind, so I'm sure the BCPP will handle some too?
Micro helis cease to be fun when the wind gets to 10mph. Leave 'em home.
Quote:
Do you have links to your videos?
http://www.justplanechris.com/videos/
Quote:
Does the BCPP have the sticky collective issue?
I'm not sure if it does or not. Perhaps someone who regularly flies the BCPP can comment?

-Chris
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 08:48 PM
Registered User
South Windsor
Joined May 2005
390 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliriousIntent

Any sugestions to what size prop I should try with the direct drive? The EP3020 just doesn't seem to have enough thrust, and I don't want to over load the motor with a prop thats too large.
A few tips.

The pack is way to heavy. TP 730 or 910 are good choises. The Park 370 with 9t does not even pull 10 A at 12 deg pitch on stock blades. I fly mine with a Phoenix 10. In mild flyin I get about 12 min flightime. That is indicating an average of 5C discharge. The interesting thing is that when I fly with a 1200 pack I get only a few more minutes than with the TP 730 pack.


As I wrote in an other post I tried a GWS EP-3030, same diameter, more pitch and slightly smaller blade area and this prop is much quieter and it gives better control. www.allerc.com has them in stock.

I run a 9t HPI RS4 pinion They are steel and are very well made making the heli very quiet. I purchsed it from Tower hobbies.


Good luck with it. A BCPP with the Park 370 and DD tail is a great heli.

Ulf
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Old Feb 25, 2007, 09:16 PM
Psurvival = 1/ThArrival
osterizer's Avatar
Maryland, USA
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlaneChris
I'm not sure if it does or not. Perhaps someone who regularly flies the BCPP can comment?

-Chris
It absolutely does-- the parts stick just as much as its stablemates, particularly when you replace a few. They loosen naturally after a few flights, and liberal doses of graphite to the balls and some lube to the swash ball help a great deal. You should also adjust the screws holding the mixer arms; if you screw them tight you'll be lucky if it flies, but back them out (up to about 1/4 of a turn) until the flybar tilts with no force at all. Checking these should be a normal preflight routine.

Last piece is the rotor hub. Lubricating the slider section helps, but the plastic ones go out of true if you look at them too intently, and that's assuming you got one that is true in the first place. Mentioned elsewhere, I just ordered the MH alu hub, in the expectation that it, the cnc main gear and stainless mainshaft will keep the button in one place and eliminate any binding there.

I've had the stock parts hovering like you're hanging from a string, but it's difficult to keep them that way. I like the BCPP a lot, but it's definitely a heli that loves to be tweaked and tinkered with.
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Old Feb 27, 2007, 09:36 PM
Keep'em Spinning High!
DeliriousIntent's Avatar
Miami Florida
Joined Feb 2007
318 Posts
Well I decided to go ahead with the micro agresive 3D build that I mentioned in my original post. Over the weekend I purchased a whole bunch of items for test builds. I'm also going to try a brushless tail in a few configurations. So I diped into my savings account and ended up geting one of my credit cards flaged for excessive use, again. Imagine that?!?!

I ordered a few different brushless motors for testing and for upgrading some of my other BCPP's. Of these motors the 12-30-4110 seemed best suited for the tail upgrade test. It's slightly smaller then the CN12 DD motor, and it weighs less then the dual motor modification. Hopefuly this will give me the thrust and responce I want. I also ordered a large variety of props from 3 to 6 inch to try out in various configurations, with and without the stock gear drive. Only down side to this will be the power consumption. With two 4100Kv BL motors I'm sure it will eat up the battery packs fast, so I bought a few extra 950mAh 15C and a couple 1200mAh 20C packs. I also bought a variety of pinions from 8 to 12 teeth for the existing build. The 10T pinion is a little too much for the existing 4100 and makes head speed hard to keep stable. I can hear the head speeds change a lot in agresive flight.

BTW: Whats up with Spektrum? Everyone is sold out on recievers. Only ones I could find were the BOT RX's. Hope they will work as good as the AR6000. If not I have a few foamies that could use them, as well as all the extra parts I ordered.


It's a drug, no, I mean hobby.

Delirious Intentions
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Old Feb 27, 2007, 09:56 PM
Keep'em Spinning High!
DeliriousIntent's Avatar
Miami Florida
Joined Feb 2007
318 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by osterizer
I've had the stock parts hovering like you're hanging from a string, but it's difficult to keep them that way. I like the BCPP a lot, but it's definitely a heli that loves to be tweaked and tinkered with.
Very true, I have 3 stock BCPP's RTF and no two are alike in a hover. The size and accuracy of the parts makes for some intresting tweeking. I love it for so many reasons. Especialy for hacking. I'm really starting to see that this machine was almost made for modifications. You can start out with a simple stock machine and upgrade each part seporatly little at a time till you have a miniture version of a larger class machine. Only limitations are weight and cost. Some of these upgrade parts cost almost as much as the parts for my Shuttle nitro fuel helicopter.
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Old Feb 28, 2007, 10:29 AM
Keep'em Spinning High!
DeliriousIntent's Avatar
Miami Florida
Joined Feb 2007
318 Posts
Well today was a major dissapointment.

I took the brushless beast out for a spin and was doing good for the first half of the battery pack. I'm still taking it easy with it till I can get the new main gear. So I was just doing simple manuvers like a kiddie roller coaster ride. Got all the way to the top of a looped run, about 80 feet up, and did a quick double spin to the right, and then all of a sudden it drifted off to the left. It started spinning faster and faster. Did I loose the tail prop? WTH?!?

All I could do was idle down the motor and watch it free fall spinning out of control as it fell. It hit the pavement in the middle of the road with a loud crash and even bounced. Broke nearly everything but the controlers and the brushless motor. Even punctured one of the Lipo packs(new 900mAh 20C pack, 3rd flight!), and even cracked the RX open. Total rebuild!

After I picked up all the peices I first checked the BL and it seems to be ok. I then grabed a meter and started probing the tail motor controler and motor. The motor burned out on me doing the hard double turn to the right. Poped open the back cover and sure enough it even smelt burnt.

I was so disgusted, I haven't had a crash like this in a long time. Why couldn't it have land in the grass or a tree! Guess it was better then some ones windshield. And yes It happened with my nitro before, cost me nearly $800 for roof repairs and new glass, not to mention another $600 for the heli repairs too.
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Old Feb 28, 2007, 11:46 AM
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USA, CA, Pasadena
Joined Dec 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliriousIntent
Well today was a major dissapointment.

I took the brushless beast out for a spin and was doing good for the first half of the battery pack. I'm still taking it easy with it till I can get the new main gear. So I was just doing simple manuvers like a kiddie roller coaster ride. Got all the way to the top of a looped run, about 80 feet up, and did a quick double spin to the right, and then all of a sudden it drifted off to the left. It started spinning faster and faster. Did I loose the tail prop? WTH?!?

All I could do was idle down the motor and watch it free fall spinning out of control as it fell. It hit the pavement in the middle of the road with a loud crash and even bounced. Broke nearly everything but the controlers and the brushless motor. Even punctured one of the Lipo packs(new 900mAh 20C pack, 3rd flight!), and even cracked the RX open. Total rebuild!

After I picked up all the peices I first checked the BL and it seems to be ok. I then grabed a meter and started probing the tail motor controler and motor. The motor burned out on me doing the hard double turn to the right. Poped open the back cover and sure enough it even smelt burnt.

I was so disgusted, I haven't had a crash like this in a long time. Why couldn't it have land in the grass or a tree! Guess it was better then some ones windshield. And yes It happened with my nitro before, cost me nearly $800 for roof repairs and new glass, not to mention another $600 for the heli repairs too.
Hey there Delirious. Sorry to hear about your crash! It happens to the best of us. As it would usually happen, I think we have all asked the question, why not hit a tree, grass??? Anyways, I am extremely interested in this thread of yours and would love to see and learn of your progress! I have many heli's and like you, the BCPP seemed to be all around fun for bang on the buck. My Blade CP Pro is a little over a week old now and ya, bang for the buck does not exist. Parts costs are good but it sure cost me like $600.00to get to where I'm at. I have almost the same set up as you. Park 370 4100kv, GWS Tail, I am using the TP 910mAh, CC Phoenix 25, G90 Gyro. This heli is a great flying little thing. I did some mild 3D the response is very well. I would however like to increase my tail rotor authority a bit more. Why are you using an extra ESC for the Tail? I have subscribed to this thread. Thanks for the help!
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Old Feb 28, 2007, 12:47 PM
That whirly guy
Bothersome's Avatar
Vivian, LA
Joined Jan 2007
830 Posts
Basically, adding a different ESC for the tail motor allows you to remove the original 3-in-1 unit from the heli. It also simplifies the wiring in that you don't need a splitter for your throttle (channel 3).

When I read the thread, I had a bad feeling about that tail motor. Basically, when you add more power (torque generator), you add more weight. Then, you need a bigger battery for to get the flight time back. And because of a bigger battery, you've added even more weight. So, when you've finally got the power for lifting more weight, you have a lot of torque going. Now the tail must compensate for that extra torque (at least 100% more). The tail motor is getting hot (mostly the brushes and wires inside) and can't dissapate the heat to the sink fast enough. Then a couple of wild turns later, and it gets fun from there.

I made the mistake of going brushless and HH gyro on mine too. And to compensate I put a 1500 mhA battery on it. Doesn't handle worth a crap anymore. I'm gonna have to either upgrade the class of heli, or go back the other way. I did find that carbon-fiber blades worked best, but it's still feels like trying to fly a brick.

I'm thinking the lighter the better now. It's just a guy thing, to think along the lines of bigger and more powerful. When it comes to helicopters, there must be some weigh/size ratio that must be minded. Basically we need brushless torque generators, but we need em as light as possible. And I mean it. If you're adding weight, you're going the wrong way.
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