Creation vs Evolution

[putt_13]

Hello,
I am just wondering why we arguing/converse over subjects like this. People have faith that they will never let falter, and people can pipe out facts that can neither prove nor disprove the beliefs of that person. I think we should just let it rest. It will never be known how life started, but people will always think they know the answer. Just my 2 cents. -Patrick

[DNA]

Patrick,

>I am just wondering why we arguing/converse over subjects like this.

It must have been a slow news day for MrM.

[Slime-Lover]

Originally posted by Sparky Paul


This in itself trivializes the concept of a omnipotent god.
Directing where every rain drop falls, but ignoring the 4000 deaths per day by starvation of young children around the world.
Someone's priorities are seriously askew to say the least.
This monster isn't part of science either!
To say nothing of what it means to "free will"; if every rain drop is foreordained so are all the other activities on the earth/universe.
Even this message.
Salvation? Not to worry. Either you were when you were concieved, or you weren't. There's NOTHING you can do to change that fate according to this idea.

I guess I've really opened up a can of worms now that I don't have all the answers for myself. Let me give it a try anyway. Well, it is a Budhist idea that nothing exists in the first place so, salvation and free will are moot points if there IS nobody. I guess that determinism is a step in that direction by saying at least one thing, free will, does not exist. Modern scientific concepts of cause and effect are deterministic. The second law of thermodynamics states; Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No room for choice there. A poolball hit acrcoss a billiard table into another doesn't have a choice on what angle it wants to rebound. When people are in a panic and don't have time to think they are really no more than billiard balls bouncing off eachother. Their actions being totally based on their cumulative knowlege gathered in the past. Certainly there are many things in our lives that we did not choose--parents are probably the biggest deterministic effect in our lives other than the weather and the planet we live on or the number of moons that planet has.

Even when we are not in a panic and are being thoughtful like in this thread aren't we still goverened by things that happened in the past. Who decided that this thread would be in English? Aren't you just being classic "Sparkey Paul" by replying to this thread? Did you really make a conscious choice to be classic "Sparkey Paul" when replying to this thread? Now that I've brought up the idea that you are being classic "Sparkey Paul" you might try to be something else out of spite in an attempt to demonstrate your free will, but where did you get the idea or the impetus to try to be other than "Sparkey Paul". The answer-- the past, and since we cannot change the past, and the laws of cause and effect are unchangable, how can we change the future?

Determinism is not a life sentence of being a robot as I see it. Determinism is a comfort to me. It takes alot of weight off my shoulders and allows me to leave things up to God. I still don't want to bad things because I don't like the consequences of bad behavior (you know, what comes around goes around), but when I find myself having done somthing I'm not proud of determinism helps me view things in a larger context. It helps me realize not to worry, be happy because everything will be alright.

Determinism doesn't take away the excitement of living eigther because we still cannot know what will happen in the future. Think about this--you go to a movie knowing that the movie's outcome does not change because you are there to watch it. The movie has aready been shot and printed yet you still enjoy watching events unfold on the screen. I think Shakespeare said, "All the world is a stage, yada, yada, yada, somthing-or-other"

Originally posted by Sparky Paul

Creationism can't be shoehorned into science by any rationalization, no how well intended to disarm the conflict.
Science depends on experimentation to prove/disprove theories. There is no way at all to experiment with creationism.

I guess I was just trying to ease the tension among Creationist by saying that God is in the scientific concept of randomness as defined by Chaos Theory. So they don't have to push their way into science classess any further than that. I did not mean that Scientists have to acknowlege God in the concept of randomness and alter their experimentation.

[Viper Pilot]

Originally posted by Sparky Paul
. . . . .There is no way at all to experiment with creationism.

Exactly. In order to be accepted, the experiment must be able to be repeated. Biblical Creation cannot be repeated in the lab.

VP

[MrBungle]

Originally posted by Trizza
I reckon we're a physics experiment by a bunch of alien uni students. The physics experiment is a simulation running on a computer. They have a well defined set of rules & laws, and an underlying random number generator so all the quantum crap works.
It explains everything! It could satisfy both camps: Creationism - The alien's are "God", Evolutionism - We evolved in this little universe they are simulating.
It also explains why it seems that this so called "God" doesn't seem to give a damn what happens here, because "God" is just observing, not manipulating.

Next question: who/what made the alien's universe, or how did it come about?

HAHA! thats not unlike something I thought up many years ago, I don't believe it, but it was good fun thinking it.

What I was thinking was that our bubble of a Universe is a sub atomic particle(electron,proton or neutron) in some other beings body, and that that being's Universe is also a sub atomic particle in another beings body, and that its universe is a sub atomic particle in another ..... you can see where this is going

Great fun!

Simon

[Gerald]

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[Sparky Paul]

[quote]Originally posted by Slime-Lover


I guess I've really opened up a can of worms now that I don't have all the answers for myself. Let me give it a try anyway. Well, it is a Budhist idea that nothing exists in the first place so,
[quote]
.
This is one area where I have a disagreement with philosophy for the sake of philosophy. It's absurd at the git-go. If "nothing exists" then there's no way to discuss it.
.

salvation and free will are moot points if there IS nobody.

.
See?
There IS somebody, and we're discussing it!
Free will is evident. Salvation, well, that's promised -after- death, when you can't complain if you don't get it.
.

I guess that determinism is a step in that direction by saying at least one thing, free will, does not exist. Modern scientific concepts of cause and effect are deterministic. The second law of thermodynamics states; Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No room for choice there. A poolball hit acrcoss a billiard table into another doesn't have a choice on what angle it wants to rebound. When people are in a panic and don't have time to think they are really no more than billiard balls bouncing off each other. Their actions being totally based on their cumulative knowledge gathered in the past.

.
There's an infinite number of ways people respond to situations, unlike the billiard ball which can't make a decision. It's constrained by the surface of the table, the speed it has, etc.
People can go above the table, below it, away from it,... Everyone's perceptions of the world are different from all others, and are for the most part unpredictable, and certainly have many more degrees of freedom than the ball.
.

Certainly there are many things in our lives that we did not choose--parents are probably the biggest deterministic effect in our lives other than the weather and the planet we live on or the number of moons that planet has.

Even when we are not in a panic and are being thoughtful like in this thread aren't we still goverened by things that happened in the past. Who decided that this thread would be in English?

.
The "decision" is made by the culture of the people participating. English is the language for this URL. It could be Romanian on another site.
There wasn't any "prime mover" determining that this site will be in English only, it's just that this site uses English.

Aren't you just being classic "Sparky Paul" by replying to this thread? Did you really make a conscious choice to be classic "Sparky Paul" when replying to this thread? Now that I've brought up the idea that you are being classic "Sparky Paul" you might try to be something else out of spite in an attempt to demonstrate your free will, but where did you get the idea or the impetus to try to be other than "Sparky Paul". The answer-- the past, and since we cannot change the past, and the laws of cause and effect are unchangable, how can we change the future?

.
As Sparky Paul I could be arguing in my spare time! The 'laws of cause and effect" don't apply to human interactions. We can only guess at how someone will react to ourselves at any given time.
.

Determinism is not a life sentence of being a robot as I see it. Determinism is a comfort to me. It takes alot of weight off my shoulders and allows me to leave things up to God.

.
I prefer a more substantial basis for my life.
I haven't seen a direct intervention by anything supernatural in my life yet, and in viewing the past several thousand years of history there's an equal dearth of such. Otherwise, so many bad things wouldn't have happened to so many good people!
.

I still don't want to (do) bad things because I don't like the consequences of bad behavior (you know, what comes around goes around),

.
There's a lot of bad people who die natural deaths after creating incredible chaos while alive. What they should have experienced for death, they didn't.

. but when I find myself having done something I'm not proud of determinism helps me view things in a larger context. It helps me realize not to worry, be happy because everything will be alright.

.
Everything will not be all right! **** happens. Can't even pump gas in the DC area without worrying about getting your brains shot out!
You have to work at being happy, not expect it as a perk for just being you.

Determinism doesn't take away the excitement of living either because we still cannot know what will happen in the future. Think about this--you go to a movie knowing that the movie's outcome does not change because you are there to watch it. The movie has aready been shot and printed yet you still enjoy watching events unfold on the screen. I think Shakespeare said, "All the world is a stage, yada, yada, yada, somthing-or-other"

.
Again, life isn't scripted. Our freedom to make choices every minute of the day alters the direction our life takes as we make them.
.

I guess I was just trying to ease the tension among Creationist by saying that God is in the scientific concept of randomness as defined by Chaos Theory. So they don't have to push their way into science classes any further than that. I did not mean that Scientists have to acknowlege God in the concept of randomness and alter their experimentation.

.
As mentioned before, until a testable feature of religion can be determined, religion and science are not teachable as equals.

[MrBungle]

Originally posted by Gerald


Closer to the truth than you realize.

How so?

I understand there are theories about our universe being just one of many 'bubble' universe's. But how is this close? and has it ever even been proven?
And what truth? I didn't realise that the second biggest question('whats out there?') had been answered. (the first being 'why are we here?' )

Please enlighten us.

Simon

[Gerald]

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[Slime-Lover]

Way to go Gerald! Now were diggin' deep. Where did you pick up this stuff? I like it. I was going to make some points about non-existance but I think the concept is included in your list of absolutes.

[Slime-Lover]

Just so we don't get definitions mixed up, the chaos that I metioned in relation to Chaos Theory has infinitely recursive order in it. Therefore "chaos" as defined by Chaos Theory is also defined by one of the universal absolutes that you listed. I think that before Chaos Theory came about the word "chaos" only meant "disorder".

[leccyflyer]

Originally posted by Gerald
you can't point to something and say "that is chaos."

You've never seen my workbench G

Leccy

[Slime-Lover]

Originally posted by Brian Cullen


You've never seen my workbench G

Leccy

Chaos Theory says that there is no true disorder, only simple "linear" order and complex "nonlinear" "fractal" order. Tell that to anyone who says your workbench is messy.

[Gerald]

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[Gerald]

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