Creation vs Evolution - Page 4

joao · Oct 05, 2002, 06:17 PM

Fellow Ezoners interested in the present thread might want to take a look at:

"The Overview Effect - Space Exploration and Human Evolution" by Frank White, already second edition, 1998

It´s an American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics publication, ISBN 1-56347-260-0

I just got a copy a few weeks ago (one click away order systems are

but the $$$$$$s "Evolution" is too fast

).
Not yet started reading but looks very interesting.
Part1 The Overview Effect
Part2 The New Civilizations
Part3 Experiences of the Astronauts and Cosmonauts

Cheers, João

Marten · Oct 08, 2002, 01:31 PM

and I refer you all to this one in particular.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li...faq/cat09.html

Marten

Marten · Oct 08, 2002, 01:45 PM

Brian,
You're the first person to comment on it.

A neat, but accidental, double-entendre with the subject at hand, too.

Marten

Gerald · Oct 08, 2002, 01:49 PM

...

leccyflyer · Oct 08, 2002, 02:05 PM

Oh dear, where's me petard??

I'd posted

Quote:

Marten

Nice bye-line

dakka-dakka-dakka-dakka-dakka

Sorry folks that was a bit of a non-sequitor, referring to the quote above Marten's avatar, but on second thoughts I though it detracted from the debate, so I removed it as soon as it was posted- not quickly enough though.

Brian

lymon · Oct 08, 2002, 02:09 PM

a truly omnipotent God can eat his burrito and have it, too

Viper Pilot · Oct 08, 2002, 03:59 PM

lymon,

A truly omnipotent God can turn your planes into ash. Watch the sky for lightning bolts.

VP

U2Steve · Oct 08, 2002, 04:23 PM

Saw a special on the Hubble the other night- some scientist claims that based on data from the telescope, the expansion rate of the universe is actually ACCELERATING! Where does this leave both the finite-universe, and the cyclical big-bang arguments?

GForceStress · Oct 08, 2002, 08:58 PM

You have to believe we were created somehow (obviously!) but who really knows how. I think everyone knows that evolution has gotten enough research to be proved, but weather or not they want to believe their religion well thats up to them . My $.02

Luxor · Oct 09, 2002, 04:24 AM

Religion, ahh, who needs it, just an excuse to explain what we choose not to undrstand.
Spirituality on the other hand is something quite different.
With spirituality in mind consider the bible not as a factual story, but rather an instruction manual written with examples on how to be a good and moral person, some taken from truth, and others emeblished upon. That said, creationism and genesis are just the beginning of the story.
Is there a God, I don't know. I also don't have faith God exists. I try to live my life as moraly as I can. I have never had an extra-marital affair, I try not to lie, I don't steal, and certainly wouldn't kill anyone. I live my life this way not by fear of God as religion teaches, but because I believe it to be proper. So in my mind creationism does not make sense, while evloution makes perfect sense.
Just my .02

Eric S.

Slime-Lover · Oct 13, 2002, 04:50 AM

I don't see Creationism and Evolution as opposing each other. Creationism is the "poetic" description of how the life was created and Evolution is the "nuts and bolts" desciption. If you think that relegating Creationism to mere poetic status lessens it in some way, I also believe that poetry is as important for understanding the wold we live in as nuts and bolts are.

Another reason that Creationism and Evolution don't conflict for me is because of Chaos Theory. Some think it impossible for life to have arisen from random happenings. What Chaos Theory has uncovered is that randomness is not what all of us thought it was. There is actually order in randomness. The kind of order that was found in randomness is exactly the kind of order that we see in the world in the forms of plants and animals and even in events in time. This type of order never repeats itself exactly, but it mimics itself (so, you still can't predict the future and pick the right horse at the track). The mimicing/repeating order shows itself in the segments of your own backbone which are all similiar, but yet slightly different from each other; in the leaves on a fern that repeat but get smaller and smaller towards the tip; and in time, as Mark Twain once said "History never repeats itself, but it rhymes." Einstein believed that the Universe is orderly and govererned by fixed laws. His response to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal was "God does not play dice with the Universe." But Chaos Theory and its implications for the very definition of randomness, in my mind, mean that God IS the dice. Or maybe "randomness" is just another "face/image" of God.
http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html

Viper Pilot · Oct 13, 2002, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slime-Lover
I don't see Creationism and Evolution as opposing each other. Creationism is the "poetic" description of how the life was created and Evolution is the "nuts and bolts" desciption. . . . . .

But when Creationism is forced on young minds as a "Science" we get into trouble.

It should NOT be taught as a science course, but a humanities course . . . . if it is going to be taught at all.

Seems to me that would pose another "seperation" issue. Which religions' creation is to be taught. As I understand it, it is the Christian version they want to teach.

VP

Gman2 · Oct 13, 2002, 02:00 PM

The misnomer scientific creationism is the real problem. I have studied this for years and almost all practitioners claim that the bible is the ttextbook against all other references. This means that when the bible doesnt reference a thing, it doesnt exist. If it is only mentioned in passing, it is of little importance. If it says something figuratively, it is literal. The begats are there to show the common lineage of Jesus to abraham for instance to prove Gods faithfulness. Not to replace carbon dating. The assumption that God placed or allowed the devil to place dino bones to mislead the masses is laughable. If you ask for bread, will god give you a rock? Footprints next to dino tracks have been proven to be fakes planted by fundamentalists. This is a evil as knowingly false gold plates in mormonism.

evolution is not humanities, but our best ongoing guess of reality. That is a good definition of science. There is no reason to have fundamentalists in the classroom as scientists. Evolution does not speak of our destiny or of moral certainty or any other realm properly addressed by theology. The greater danger to our souls is the pompous assumptions of mans role and purpose on earth espoused by fundamentalists. Gone is the caretaker role spoken of and instead is our corporate inspired interpretation of dominance over nature. Most of what inspires the religious is the fear of uncertainty. We must have some edge over cruel cause and effect even though cause and effect must be ultra reliable or we would feel in chaos. It is equivalent to the scofflaw that encourages lawfulness so that he can speed his car and not be blocked by sudden lane changers that might end his fun. There is also Neitsche who said that he would prefer that his servants believed in God as they would steal less of the silverware. Most fundamentalists cannot concieve of a reason not to act in complete selfishness and disregard for others and community if not for the constant threat of a cosmic bogeyman.

Slime-Lover · Oct 13, 2002, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Viper Pilot

But when Creationism is forced on young minds as a "Science" we get into trouble.

VP

Very True. Unfortunately, many creationists think that Creationism (and the whole bible for that matter) only has meaning if it is taken to be a literal desciption instead of a poetic desciption. This is a symptom of the materialistic culture that we live in here in the US.

However, Chaos Theory uncovers the once hidden order in randomness and thus brings the Creationist position of "life couldn't have been created by random events, it needed a designer," and the Scientific position of "there was no designer, only random events," together by revealing that the designer is working IN randomness itself. So God/intelligent designer, is actually controling dice and the spot where every raindrop falls.

With this realization, maybe creationists will back off from trying to get Creationism into science classes because God/intelligent designer is included by the scienticfic concept of randomness.

Sparky Paul · Oct 13, 2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slime-Lover

... So God/intelligent designer, is actually controling dice and the spot where every raindrop falls.

With this realization, maybe creationists will back off from trying to get Creationism into science classes because God/intelligent designer is included by the scienticfic concept of randomness.

.
This in itself trivializes the concept of a omnipotent god.
Directing where every rain drop falls, but ignoring the 4000 deaths per day by starvation of young children around the world.
Someone's priorities are seriously askew to say the least.
This monster isn't part of science either!
To say nothing of what it means to "free will"; if every rain drop is foreordained so are all the other activities on the earth/universe.
Even this message.
Salvation? Not to worry. Either you were when you were concieved, or you weren't. There's NOTHING you can do to change that fate according to this idea.
Creationism can't be shoehorned into science by any rationalization, no matter how well the intention to disarm the conflict.
Science depends on experimentation to prove/disprove theories. There is no way at all to experiment with creationism.

Oct 08, 2002, 01:31 PM	#47
Marten ..teach monkeys to fly.. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ottawa Intl, Canada Posts: 322	PBS has a good set of pages... and I refer you all to this one in particular. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li...faq/cat09.html Marten

Oct 08, 2002, 01:49 PM	#49
Gerald . Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,080	... Last edited by Gerald; May 06, 2008 at 11:45 PM.

Oct 13, 2002, 04:50 AM	#56
Slime-Lover Beer me! Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	I don't see Creationism and Evolution as opposing each other. Creationism is the "poetic" description of how the life was created and Evolution is the "nuts and bolts" desciption. If you think that relegating Creationism to mere poetic status lessens it in some way, I also believe that poetry is as important for understanding the wold we live in as nuts and bolts are. Another reason that Creationism and Evolution don't conflict for me is because of Chaos Theory. Some think it impossible for life to have arisen from random happenings. What Chaos Theory has uncovered is that randomness is not what all of us thought it was. There is actually order in randomness. The kind of order that was found in randomness is exactly the kind of order that we see in the world in the forms of plants and animals and even in events in time. This type of order never repeats itself exactly, but it mimics itself (so, you still can't predict the future and pick the right horse at the track). The mimicing/repeating order shows itself in the segments of your own backbone which are all similiar, but yet slightly different from each other; in the leaves on a fern that repeat but get smaller and smaller towards the tip; and in time, as Mark Twain once said "History never repeats itself, but it rhymes." Einstein believed that the Universe is orderly and govererned by fixed laws. His response to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal was "God does not play dice with the Universe." But Chaos Theory and its implications for the very definition of randomness, in my mind, mean that God IS the dice. Or maybe "randomness" is just another "face/image" of God. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html Last edited by Slime-Lover; Oct 13, 2002 at 04:56 AM.

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Oct 05, 2002, 06:17 PM	#46
joao Registered User Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Coimbra, Portugal Posts: 707	Fellow Ezoners interested in the present thread might want to take a look at: "The Overview Effect - Space Exploration and Human Evolution" by Frank White, already second edition, 1998 It´s an American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics publication, ISBN 1-56347-260-0 I just got a copy a few weeks ago (one click away order systems are but the $$$$$$s "Evolution" is too fast ). Not yet started reading but looks very interesting. Part1 The Overview Effect Part2 The New Civilizations Part3 Experiences of the Astronauts and Cosmonauts Cheers, João

Oct 08, 2002, 01:45 PM	#48
Marten ..teach monkeys to fly.. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ottawa Intl, Canada Posts: 322	Brian, You're the first person to comment on it. A neat, but accidental, double-entendre with the subject at hand, too. Marten

Oct 08, 2002, 02:09 PM	#51
lymon Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Houston Posts: 793	a truly omnipotent God can eat his burrito and have it, too

Oct 08, 2002, 03:59 PM	#52
Viper Pilot Heading for the Gambia Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Want to be in Banjul Posts: 4,241	lymon, A truly omnipotent God can turn your planes into ash. Watch the sky for lightning bolts. VP

Oct 08, 2002, 04:23 PM	#53
U2Steve Now with more COWBELL! Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Lexington, KY, USA Posts: 793	Saw a special on the Hubble the other night- some scientist claims that based on data from the telescope, the expansion rate of the universe is actually ACCELERATING! Where does this leave both the finite-universe, and the cyclical big-bang arguments?

Oct 08, 2002, 08:58 PM	#54
GForceStress Oxymoron: Rap Music Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 788	You have to believe we were created somehow (obviously!) but who really knows how. I think everyone knows that evolution has gotten enough research to be proved, but weather or not they want to believe their religion well thats up to them . My $.02

Oct 09, 2002, 04:24 AM	#55
Luxor Rotorhead Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oly, Wa, USA Posts: 323	Religion, ahh, who needs it, just an excuse to explain what we choose not to undrstand. Spirituality on the other hand is something quite different. With spirituality in mind consider the bible not as a factual story, but rather an instruction manual written with examples on how to be a good and moral person, some taken from truth, and others emeblished upon. That said, creationism and genesis are just the beginning of the story. Is there a God, I don't know. I also don't have faith God exists. I try to live my life as moraly as I can. I have never had an extra-marital affair, I try not to lie, I don't steal, and certainly wouldn't kill anyone. I live my life this way not by fear of God as religion teaches, but because I believe it to be proper. So in my mind creationism does not make sense, while evloution makes perfect sense. Just my .02 Eric S.

Oct 13, 2002, 02:00 PM	#58
Gman2 Fire Hydrant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: land of permaban Posts: 143	The misnomer scientific creationism is the real problem. I have studied this for years and almost all practitioners claim that the bible is the ttextbook against all other references. This means that when the bible doesnt reference a thing, it doesnt exist. If it is only mentioned in passing, it is of little importance. If it says something figuratively, it is literal. The begats are there to show the common lineage of Jesus to abraham for instance to prove Gods faithfulness. Not to replace carbon dating. The assumption that God placed or allowed the devil to place dino bones to mislead the masses is laughable. If you ask for bread, will god give you a rock? Footprints next to dino tracks have been proven to be fakes planted by fundamentalists. This is a evil as knowingly false gold plates in mormonism. evolution is not humanities, but our best ongoing guess of reality. That is a good definition of science. There is no reason to have fundamentalists in the classroom as scientists. Evolution does not speak of our destiny or of moral certainty or any other realm properly addressed by theology. The greater danger to our souls is the pompous assumptions of mans role and purpose on earth espoused by fundamentalists. Gone is the caretaker role spoken of and instead is our corporate inspired interpretation of dominance over nature. Most of what inspires the religious is the fear of uncertainty. We must have some edge over cruel cause and effect even though cause and effect must be ultra reliable or we would feel in chaos. It is equivalent to the scofflaw that encourages lawfulness so that he can speed his car and not be blocked by sudden lane changers that might end his fun. There is also Neitsche who said that he would prefer that his servants believed in God as they would steal less of the silverware. Most fundamentalists cannot concieve of a reason not to act in complete selfishness and disregard for others and community if not for the constant threat of a cosmic bogeyman.