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Oct 03, 2002, 07:05 PM
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#16 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Los Alamos, NM, USofA
Posts: 2,510
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
Quote:
 Daren |
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Oct 03, 2002, 07:26 PM
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#17 |
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Ascended Master
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 10,520
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*"Ra, the great god of Egypt, lord of the sun and the sky. He lived for countless millenia in a lotus growing in the depths of the ocean until he ascended in his full splendor.
Neither gods nor man existed until Ra created them. He created Shu and Tefnut, ancestors of all the gods, out of his own body, and created mortal man and woman out of his tears.Consequently they have known little but sorrow." . Makes sense to me. . *"Maui, the creator of many islands and peoples of the Pacific. In the days when the world was nothing but dark ocean he was born to the woman Taranga, a daughter of Hine-nui-tepo, the Goddess of the Underworld... He became tired of perpetual darkness and raised the heavens from the ocean, pinning them to the stars. ... (more science stuff left out..catching and taming the sun, making land from his brothers' bodies..stealing fire).. . Makes sense to me. . . *ref:"Enclyclopedia of Things That Never Were" . In the context of the cultures explaining "creation", all such tales make sense, to extent they explain the universe in terms known at the time. We know more now. . It isn't elephants all the way down, really! |
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Oct 03, 2002, 08:42 PM
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#18 | |
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Heli Bouncer
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: At the Discount Clambake
Posts: 3,752
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Quote:
( David Brin and Parke Godwin have both written excellent novels about this...) |
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Oct 03, 2002, 08:57 PM
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#19 |
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Living electrically
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: West of Emporia Kansas
Posts: 68
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As posted by logan5:
"I think a couple 100 million years ago a bunch of really advanced aliens came and messed with Earth's gene pool and thereby set the stage for inteligent life. " Earth may have been a side road on the galatic highway when some red necked aliens pulled off to the side and took a leak, tossed out some empty beer cans, and drove off. From this we have evolved...burrrrbpp....jeff |
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Oct 03, 2002, 09:38 PM
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#20 |
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Fire Hydrant
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: land of permaban
Posts: 143
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from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed. "
Life was breathed into man. It was not done until later. This does not preclude man evolving from earlier forms. Life possibly being a soul[conscience etc.].There is also a reference to gathering places of intelligent beings predating mans appearance on earth. The bible says that animals are made of the dust of the earth. Just like man. This is likely to mean carbon based. It also implies that they are from a common source. whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity This is incorrect. Gravity speeds along entropy. Life and especially evolution is antientropy. It is constantly renewing itself or you would be dead in no time. The intelligence of the universe is patterned in all life forms. The lifespans of creatures is somewhat arbitrary and follows a logic of generations. It is intelligent in that it anticipates the speed of adaptation required for the general environment it finds itself. This is obviously not always aligned with reality. Why can't God "originate" and then let His "Laws" take over from there. This is the theist version of God. This precludes most if not all miracles and doesnt explain the antientropy component of life. The chemical reactions in your body that very easily could be slightly different and therefore youre dead, follow subtle cues from the universe. They are a microcosm of the whole universe. Once the Biblical account of Genesis is thus discredited as the true Word then by extension the rest of the Bible would be discredited to a certain extent as well. There is no conflict with the biblical account and science. The order of appearance is identical. The only conflict is with fools that added the begats and declared that the earth has to be 6000 years old or you are a heathen. Prophecy and all else in the bible is based on this happened and then that. In the original language, it does not specify equal blocks of time. This is bogus. Therefore those that waste their time arguing whether it is one day or a thousand years are idiots. The author of Revelations did not see that imagery as set blocks of time and noone else did either. Creationism, as a science, holds no water (in fact it leaks like a sieve). Special creation is pure egotism. The whole message of christianity and in fact all other religions is to kill the ego and therefore reach accord with the universe. This is the opposite of most all organized religions. Jesus will be pissed as hell when he faces those that make dead people into icons or tell people that they will see their relatives in heaven. We have made ourselves more separate from the universe than without religion. Our concepts that we as egos will endure after life as we presently are is nonsense. It is not scientific and not christian and not logical. Is the universe thought to be infinite? If it is, there are an infinite number of planets, like ours, with solar systems and complex, intelligent life forms. Which, as a sidenote, evolved all by themselves. For they know nothing of our god(s). There has been a discovery of enough dark matter to conclude that the universe is finite. The hindu religion thinks that it is finite and that it expands until it reaches a point and then it collapses and the big bang happens all over again and life is like a cycle. There is no logical reason to believe that there are any other planets able to sustain life. There is no basis to believe either way. It is a faith decision like your beliefs of God. There is an intellience in the universe that does more than enforce the universal laws as they appear to us as the laws of thermodynamics etc. It patterns itself on every living being. It replicates almost perfect copies of itself until the slight defects add up and then the organism dies. Only then does it follow the laws of physics. It is too bad that those that find such wonder in evolution and life can so easily dispatch it as in war. |
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Oct 03, 2002, 11:01 PM
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#21 |
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That sickening crunch..
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 39,804
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Ben,
the universe is not infinite. Science has determined it's bounds (although it's awfully large). Question is, what contains it?  I for one am reminded again of how glad I am that my daughter is not attending a government school.. ..a |
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Oct 03, 2002, 11:36 PM
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#22 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1996
Location: Keremeos, BC, Canada
Posts: 633
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Man, you guys are good...
I knew this thread would be worth reading, if for no other reason than to give the Jovial Witless another reason not to knock on my door.
I grew up in the midst of the row between my grandfather (a Presbyterian Minister) and my father (an atheist, not an agnostic), and all the religious input from the 50s (my Chinese buddy added his gentle part) and the 60s (LSD opens all the doors!), and I stand aside and watch in amusement. I know none of the answers, and simply live my life the best way I can, never questioning where I came from, or where I will end up, depending on the scientific explanation that energy cannot be destroyed or created. I am a happy person... 
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Oct 04, 2002, 12:16 AM
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#23 |
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Will work for planes
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fullerton, California, United States
Posts: 1,778
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How about neither. There is no god. And man did not " evolve".
When watch shows about early hominids the term "they appered " is quite often used. I belive that creatures do not evolve. I belive that there is a radical change that happens some where some how that makes it possibe the the new form to appear. Things don't evolve they may change to suit their environment but that's the extent. If things do evolve why are there not more highly evolved creatures that have been around longer than man that exhibit high intelegence? Also where is the inbetween of the evolution (I.E. early man and modern man. Where is the missing link?)? What did man evolve from? Since man "appeared" he has change verry little. So what did he evolve from? |
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Oct 04, 2002, 01:22 AM
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#24 |
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Master Nursery Builder
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Canton, GA
Posts: 290
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Yup, Andy's right (mostly).
The last physics book I read stated that the most widely accepted theory of the universe is that it is finite but has *no* boundary. Like the surface of the earth is finite, but you can't point to a place on it and say "This is the beginning". Gman: Antientropy? *cough* HOOEY *cough* I am a Christian and believe that God created the heavens and the Earth. How He did it in 7 days and why He left all these bones around is beyond me (I'm neither a theologist nor a physicist).However, I believe that the Cobb county school board used some poor judgement here. They might as well have a mandatory Bible study class too. -O Geoffrey |
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Oct 04, 2002, 02:22 AM
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#25 |
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Human Like You
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,516
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This is gonna hurt a little, but I agree with VP.
Evolution doesn't preclude Creation. Evolution can operate assuming a Prime Mover or it can all just be the glorious meanderings of endless, vast chance. Chaos in action, anything can happen, there are no rules...no safety, no reason, no heaven or hell or angels coming to you in the night to counsel you and protect you. That's the real question for us humans...meaning, knowledge of ourselves, the unknown. Where did we come from? Endless why is all we really have after all this story telling and science and theories and discovery. There is always why. Did a God "make" us to be ourselves (does "God" care about us) or is the birth of our planet, life force, consciousness and our success and modernity and Denny's Breakfast and WMD and lust and love and joy and pain and all that is...just random chance. I tend toward a random chance that is Godlike in it's vastness and limitless energy. There is an order in the Chaos. Matter wants to collide and mix. Life wants to spring forth and struggle and floursih. At some point God and physics collide and meld into one and that's how I appreciate it most. It's Mega-Nature. It's all the things you can see happening in a small pond, a high mountaintop, or a jungle or a city street...just more gigantic than we can really fathom. I think it's easier to believe in a God that gives a darn whether I fail or succeed or live or die. It gives it more weight, more readily accessible meaning, makes it seem more important or makes things not so scary and unknown. I don't think vast randomness and evolution and physics and nature is any less divine than a Prime Mover, a benevolent God or Almighty Zeus. The whole deal is rather divine either way. We should definately ask the questions and use all of our abilities to explore and learn...but there are some things that don't end in answers, the answer you find just begins another question. That's why we have spirituality and religion...sometimes you just have to feel and believe things you can't ever know. |
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Oct 04, 2002, 02:54 AM
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#26 | ||
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Transfixus sed non mortus
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 109
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Quote:
It seems incredible that they would teach creationism in schools, it is bound to have a retarding effect on the kids appreciation of science. But, Quote:
BR, C. |
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Oct 04, 2002, 03:11 AM
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#27 | |||
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 155
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Quote:
and this one disusses horse transitional fossils http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html and homonids http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html when they say 'appear', it is because scientists don't really have a good number of fossilized ancestors for us to really know all the information. YET. if we discover a homonid fossil today, and it is the only one of it's species, we don't really know much about how long the species was kicking around before or after this individual. Quote:
take (one) bacteria. excise the gene for lactose digestion (remove it) breed this (one) bacteria into a colony flood the colony with lactose, and remove all other food sources result: 99.something% of the bacteria die, but guess what? some of the bacteria live. why? some of the bacteria have beneficial mutations that allow them to digest lactose. since the entire colony was raised from a single bacteria, WHERE did this ability come from? mutation, that's where. mutation, coupled with natural selection has caused a change in allele frequencies in a population. that's evolution, baby! Quote:
"the missing link" does not exist in the way you are probably thinking. the tree of life looks much more like a bush than a straight line from species A to B to C. don't forget, a species can have many daughter species, and yet remain living. |
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Oct 04, 2002, 03:14 AM
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#28 |
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Heli Bouncer
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: At the Discount Clambake
Posts: 3,752
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could God make a burrito so hot that even he couldn't eat it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats a hard one. BR, C. >> Well in Portland, OR, in the 70's, Heavy Number Taco made burritos that were like a religous experience to eat... And there was a never ending supply of chilies to garnish them with...  Looee |
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Oct 04, 2002, 03:18 AM
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#29 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 155
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Quote:
it seems like there are indeed many rules that the universe holds to. physics deals with finding out what those rules are. the rest of 'reality' must play by these rules. when they don't, physicists scurry around and try to fix what is wrong with the model. |
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Oct 04, 2002, 03:38 AM
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#30 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 155
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Quote:
the hubble deep field shot. it took a picture of a slice of sky that is about what a grain of sand covers at arms distance. http://imgsrc.stsci.edu/op/pubinfo/jpeg/HDFWF3.jpg a zoom ride into the deep field shot. http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/96/01/HDF.mpg it found over 1500 galaxies at various stages of evolution. each galaxy contains, on average, 100-200 billion stars. |
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