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Old Feb 18, 2007, 08:35 PM
Use The Force Jim
Jim Walker's Avatar
Las Cruces, NM USA
Joined Jul 2001
2,340 Posts
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This might help you, it added 10 feet to my launch after just one practice session.

I bought Paul Naton's 3 pack of DLG videos recently and have been studying them diligently. Recently I talked my wife into recording my launches so I could compare what I was doing to the great's launching techniques. I played the DVD in a small window side by side with another window of my digitized launch video. I used a clip of Phil Barnes to compare to myself for a few reasons. First, his body type is the closest to mine of the videos I had. Second, he throws HIGH! Third, the video angle my wife got matched the angle of Phil's video the best.

Using jog controls I stepped the two videos forward in very small increments simultaneously. In this way I could compare positions between myself and Phil. It didn't take too many times through to see where my big power leak was happening. Armed with this knowledge I went to the field and spent an hour correcting what I saw. The first 30 minutes I didn't even use the plane. I just went through the motions trying to get the feel for doing it right. I had my daughter along to confirm that I was doing the body positions I intended. It's hard to tell what you're actually doing without a camera or another pair of eyes.

I didn't expect any improvement that day and I didn't get any. Changing things always messes you up at first and this was no exception. I did notice that I could feel some new unknown muscles complaining the next morning...

The next time I went out was today and I didn't expect anything exciting. I just planned to build on the changes I'd started at the last session. As the flying session progressed I began feeling more and more comfortable. By the end of the session there was simply no doubt that I had added at least 10 feet to my launch. I didn't have my "How High" installed, but I didn't need it. The timer on my transmitter told the tale. My average flight times had gone up 15 seconds even though the sun was about to set and the air had chilled. I definitely could feel a more smooth and powerful acceleration between landing my spin and releasing the plane.

I thought others might benefit from what I learned through this exercise, and so here are some frame exports documenting it. Enjoy!
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 12:41 AM
Lift is good
Rayven's Avatar
Olympic Penninsula, WA
Joined Dec 2001
684 Posts
This does help and the idea of doing frame-by-frame comparison is a good one....not to mention lots of practice doing what you have learned! Improved dead air flight times are what I notice most as well when improvements become real....
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 10:53 AM
Mac
Peterborough UK
Joined Nov 2004
87 Posts
Comparing technique thro' video is an excellent way of seeing your faults. need to persuade my son to accompany me some time. Even after watching experts launch, and trying to copy, you may think you are doing it right but pictures could give a different story.
I have just returned from the field where I tried to emulate Phil's technique. Had to break the habit of using my wrist at the end of the throw. (A golfing habit)
Was quite pleased after a few launches to keep it straight without presets. I used to hook quite badly.
Gradually increased the effort and obtained consistent results without the wrist snap.
The RAM2 graph shows my best result and most of the launches were 35+ metres. I don't expect to improve much on this due to my age (73 in May) and can still enjoy participating in our comps. Ignore the short flight duration as this was a launch and land practice.
Hope to pick up a few tips watching Phil and others at the German championships in May.

Mac
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 11:04 AM
Registered User
Germantown, Maryland
Joined Apr 2004
4,493 Posts
Don't forget this old thread . And especially be sure and watch the technique of the king of all DLG launchers, Mattias Hammarskiöld (former Carlsson, before getting married). You can see his video here . His is the first video on the list.
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 11:55 AM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
2,110 Posts
Here are some others I took at last year’s Polecat Challenge:

Mark Drela - http://www.flyecm.com/videos/MD_DL.wmv
Oleg Golovidov - http://www.flyecm.com/videos/OG_DL.wmv
Don Vetter - http://www.flyecm.com/videos/DV_DL.wmv
Joe Wurts - http://www.flyecm.com/videos/JW_DL.wmv (Two day winner)

I don’t have any of Phil throwing right handed or at full strength, at some point during the clinic some right handed people where throwing left handed for fun, but there is plenty of footage of him out there.

For better footage you can always get Bill Haymaker’s video.

Jose
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 12:06 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
2,110 Posts
One of the things lacking from the pictures above is the rotational speed (You can't see how fast Jim and Phil are spinning), which accounts for much of the energy transfered into the model, you can see the power Phil is caring into the model, but he can also spin fast, Oleg can spin really fast...
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Last edited by jeb; Feb 19, 2007 at 12:45 PM.
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 12:30 PM
Follow my drift?...
Rutland, England
Joined Jul 2006
143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeb
One of the things lacking from the pictures above is the rotational speed, which accounts for much of the energy transfered into the model, you can see the power Phil is caring into the model, but he can also spin fast, Oleg can spin really fast...
This makes Oleg's launch even more remarkable than Phil's... it's harder for a short guy to not put lots of rotational energy into the model (which you don't want)... somehow Oleg must be able to do this...

Andy
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 12:44 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
2,110 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bretty
This makes Oleg's launch even more remarkable than Phil's... it's harder for a short guy to not put lots of rotational energy into the model (which you don't want)... somehow Oleg must be able to do this...

Andy
This seams to be the contrary of what I wrote...

you want speed and power, and speed is achieved by spinning (rotating) fast. Oleg spins very fast through the entire launch, and he is able to transfer that energy into the model very efficiently. Pilots like Don and Phil seam to spin a bit slower than Oleg (but could be an illusion based on size) but they seam to have much upper buddy strength.

What it boils down to is altitude, therefore they are all impressive.
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Last edited by jeb; Feb 19, 2007 at 12:55 PM.
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 12:54 PM
Crash=change of flying medium
bluesky123's Avatar
Boulder, CO
Joined May 2002
1,351 Posts
Jim,

Kudos to your wife and daughter for being so supportive!
My wife supports my R/C hobby too (though I could never talked her into flying a trainer via a buddy box), but my 16-year old daughter would never go to fly a plane with me...


Boris
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 06:58 PM
Use The Force Jim
Jim Walker's Avatar
Las Cruces, NM USA
Joined Jul 2001
2,340 Posts
I don't think it's an illusion Jeb, Bigger guys do spin more slowly than smaller guys. But they also have longer levers (arms). Now factor in that in rotational dynamics, the farther away from the axis of rotation an object is, the more angular velocity it will have. So taller, bigger guys with longer arms like Phil (and me) don't have to spin as fast to get the plane moving at a certain velocity as smaller guys like Oleg. It would be much harder to spin that fast being bigger anyway because of the greater mass and enertia. That's why it's a good idea to pick someone that matches your body type the closest when copying biomechanics.

I'd love to be able to spin as fast as Oleg, but I'd probably break something trying to do it. It's much easier for him to spin fast because his body type places his mass much closer to his axis of rotation than someone like me. I did study Oleg in slow motion many times as well. I didn't see much difference in what he was doing compared to Phil, he just did it faster.
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 08:10 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Upstate, NY
Joined Feb 2002
2,110 Posts
Thanks for the uneasy lesson in bio-mechanics, but I was actually pointing out, how much faster Phil spins than you and how he is able to carry momentum all the way to the point of release, this you can not appreciate by a couple of pictures.

I hope you are able to translate all this newly acquired knowledge into practice, otherwise you'll have to write a book ;-)

Nice work
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Old Feb 19, 2007, 09:38 PM
3 Sons - Legos and Lift
2motheus's Avatar
Grand Rapids, MI
Joined Apr 2004
550 Posts
Clarification?

Jeb,

Andy/Bretty said "it's harder for a short guy to not put lots of rotational energy into the model (which you don't want)" in reference to Oleg's good launch.

I would guess he means that Oleg spins fast to get the plane up to speed but is also able to minimize the increased tendency for the plane to yaw toward the inside of the circle.

Anyway, that's what I thought he meant.

BTW, I'm also watching your kit development. Good work.

Tim
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Old Feb 20, 2007, 03:28 AM
Follow my drift?...
Rutland, England
Joined Jul 2006
143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2motheus
Jeb,

Andy/Bretty said "it's harder for a short guy to not put lots of rotational energy into the model (which you don't want)" in reference to Oleg's good launch.

I would guess he means that Oleg spins fast to get the plane up to speed but is also able to minimize the increased tendency for the plane to yaw toward the inside of the circle.
Anyway, that's what I thought he meant.
Quite right Tim - that's 'exactly' what i meant Also explained by Jim above - thanks to both

Fact is... for any given linear release velocity a shorter guy will induce quite a bit more rotational inertia into the beast unless he does 'something magic' to get rid of it. Oleg clearly has the 'magic' well sorted

... i only wish i had it

Regards, Andy
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Old Feb 20, 2007, 05:39 AM
Soaring Circuits
rcbrust's Avatar
Coopersburg, PA
Joined Sep 2001
1,902 Posts
Andy, this might support the idea we've knocked around that a good strong acceleration on the inboard tip can counteract the yaw. Of all the pilots I've seen in person, Oleg has the smoothest most natural looking throw. He's not a big guy, but his technique is almost flawless. You can see, and hear, him accelerating the plane all the way through to release.

Randy
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Old Feb 20, 2007, 06:29 AM
Follow my drift?...
Rutland, England
Joined Jul 2006
143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcbrust
Andy, this might support the idea we've knocked around that a good strong acceleration on the inboard tip can counteract the yaw. Of all the pilots I've seen in person, Oleg has the smoothest most natural looking throw. He's not a big guy, but his technique is almost flawless. You can see, and hear, him accelerating the plane all the way through to release.

Randy
My 'gut feeling' (and the limited TE launch results we have so far) would suggest your hypothesis is a sound one mate I feel pretty certain that an 'exponential style power delivery' is perhaps the 'magic ingredient' that Oleg and other great throwers are (unknowingly) using.

I also believe that for guys like this, complicated SPS systems will/would be of no potential benefit whatever - they simply 'do not need it'. Ideally we'd all 'learn to throw just like them...' but dealing with reality may prove a little different. It would be interesting to get the likes of *Oleg on our 'kit' though Randy... with 'Power Delivery Profiling' we could then maybe 'steal' some of their best kept secrets

Andy

*Extra wing joiner reinforcement might be required
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