HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Feb 18, 2007, 09:53 AM
BANNED!!!
soholingo's Avatar
Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
12,675 Posts
Discussion
How come Neu doesn't make HP outrunners???

I am sure Steve will say its an oxymoron, but unless I am doing an f5b comp, I prefer Outrunners. Plettenburg makes an outrunner that is a great performer, I can only imagine what Steve could do with an efficient outrunner. Besides the simplicity and quietness of outrunners are great for sport fliers.

So Neu motors what's the deal, any outrunners on the horizon?
soholingo is offline Find More Posts by soholingo
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Feb 18, 2007, 10:56 AM
UN Earth peoples true enemy
treehog's Avatar
Euroland
Joined Jan 2004
1,797 Posts
I am probably never going to do anymore outrunners unless

I am probably never going to do anymore outrunners unless the slipping bell on the drive shaft issue is sortedout

My mega 400 outrunner and my Actro c4 180watt outrunners have bells housing slipping on the drive shaft ok from dorky landing crashes etc

yeah yeah some sort of special glue will stop that and my out runners sit in some box while i use all my inrunners

But I never got that issue from inrunners and they get wicked crashes etc

So unless they make a shear pin or anti slip solution that is certian to work

Inrunners are on my SABENA list

such a bad experience never again even though the power was good etc

Ralf
treehog is offline Find More Posts by treehog
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2007, 11:17 AM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,285 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
I am sure Steve will say its an oxymoron, but unless I am doing an f5b comp, I prefer Outrunners. Plettenburg makes an outrunner that is a great performer, I can only imagine what Steve could do with an efficient outrunner. Besides the simplicity and quietness of outrunners are great for sport fliers.

So Neu motors what's the deal, any outrunners on the horizon?

Outrunners and F5B don't mix--too little torque for the weight--they don't turn large enough props.

We had a IMAC pattern contest yesterday--the winners in both classes were geared NeuMotors. Lots of outrunners were flying--but without expection they weighed more and had problems with speed on the down lines. A lighter plane with a larger prop makes for a more constant speed.

That said I may make a smaller outrunner at some point in the future.

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2007, 11:42 AM
BANNED!!!
soholingo's Avatar
Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
12,675 Posts
Sweet... No arguement geared inrunners are better performers... but if you want to step down a bit, then outrunners are tough for the average man to avoid.

J
soholingo is offline Find More Posts by soholingo
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2007, 04:13 PM
Registered User
sneu's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
7,285 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
Sweet... No arguement geared inrunners are better performers... but if you want to step down a bit, then outrunners are tough for the average man to avoid.

J

The 19 series have more torque and are 8 pole 24 slot motors. They make great motors for many direct drive applications. http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/19...es%20data.html

Steve
sneu is offline Find More Posts by sneu
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2007, 05:47 PM
Flying motor mount master
fly_boy99's Avatar
San Jose, California, United States
Joined Oct 2004
8,745 Posts
Steve-

Honestly here. I don't think you would get into a market where you really won't make much money would you? There is a glut on this market and with all the fabricated datapoints you will have come to a commodity showdown.

Unless you start speaking fluent Mandrin and Cantonese I cannot see you doing this.

Neu motors on the other hand are not commodity items IMHO.

B
fly_boy99 is offline Find More Posts by fly_boy99
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 02:22 AM
We come in peace.
Synth's Avatar
Canada, BC, Penticton
Joined Feb 2003
1,760 Posts
It seems to me that the smaller outrunners are now outperforming the smaller inrunners. Don't know if the larger ones will ever perform as well as the high end inrunners. In any event it should be quite an interesting few years with the new battery technology and whatnot. The future looks pretty good.

Ron.
Synth is offline Find More Posts by Synth
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 04:21 AM
Registered User
Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined Jun 2002
347 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
I am sure Steve will say its an oxymoron, but unless I am doing an f5b comp, I prefer Outrunners. Plettenburg makes an outrunner that is a great performer, I can only imagine what Steve could do with an efficient outrunner. Besides the simplicity and quietness of outrunners are great for sport fliers.

So Neu motors what's the deal, any outrunners on the horizon?
Why do you prefer outrunners?

My impression is, that compared to inrunners:

1. They are much noisier than high torque inrunners (they are allmost silent)
2. The have a lower theoretical efficiency potential (less miles per gallon)
3. They seem to be heavier for the same power potential
4. The rotating bell can be cumbersome to build into a plane

The sole advantage i can find is, that they by nature of their construction are cheaper to manufacure.

That is why they were invented, they are just simpler and easy to make for homebuilders.
Peter Bech is offline Find More Posts by Peter Bech
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 04:57 AM
HyperFlight Support
Neil Stainton's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Stratford-upon-Avon
Joined Feb 2001
3,839 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Bech
2. The have a lower theoretical efficiency potential
Can you point me to a post/URL proving this? It is also my belief but some German LRK gurus categorically state it is not so.
Quote:
4. The rotating bell can be cumbersome to build into a plane
The sole advantage i can find is, that they by nature of their construction are cheaper to manufacure.
That is why they were invented, they are just simpler and easy to make for homebuilders.
Agreed.

Regards,

Neil.
Neil Stainton is offline Find More Posts by Neil Stainton
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 05:49 AM
Registered User
WimH's Avatar
Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
Joined Dec 2001
5,393 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Stainton
Can you point me to a post/URL proving this? It is also my belief but some German LRK gurus categorically state it is not so.


Agreed.

Regards,

Neil.
HMMM, what LRKgurus would that be? I've been using a "Torcman" LRK in both 7 and 10 cell. My 10 cell motor could drive a 14 inch prop with an efficiency of about 70% , 90-100A. The 7 cell one did around 73% @ around 110A ( less winds, more copper) on a 13inch prop( about the same or a bit worse than the 6 wind 3025 Hyperion). With F5B currents now 200A and over, efficiŽncies are down the drain. I know someone using an LRK outrunner @ 150A with a 60-65% eff. Inrunners can't be beat @ over 100A I'm afraid, and this is from a gearbox hater.

This being said, my 7 cell model does not perform much worse than the competition in Belgium. But they are all below 150A. I use GP2200 to be a bit lighter, and can't make the 10 minute thermal mark if the weather is not good... Another big problem is controllers. My 7 cell will not run with anything else than an old Jeti "Gold" .The 10 cell was a bit better, but as cells got more powerful I ran into trouble again and had to switch to a Jeti "master" ( MGM Compro and Kontronik Jazz did not "cut" it anymore, lost synchronisation)
WimH is online now Find More Posts by WimH
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 05:55 AM
Registered User
WimH's Avatar
Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
Joined Dec 2001
5,393 Posts
pics:

9wind/10 cell motor (290g) in Simprop LiftOff, just fits behaind a 5mm firewall

8 wind/7 cell motor (230G?), needed 25MM extension to just (< 1mm play) fit in my Simprop LiftOff XS:
WimH is online now Find More Posts by WimH
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 05:57 AM
Registered User
Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined Jun 2002
347 Posts
As I am not being an electromagnetic power systems physicist myself (allthough I come from the country of H. C. ōrsted who discovered the electromagnetis in 1820 and is guilty of making electric motors possible), I have been told the following statement by 2 university degree physicists of that kind, that:

The magnetic field from the stator is spreading more in an outrunner than in an inrunner ie the magentic field force from the stator is less for the same current in an outrunner vs an inrunner.

The only valid way to prove it, is if manufactureres provide honest measurements according to proven standards, and to my knowledge, the only manufacturer providing honest measurements is Plettenberg. (The test is done by adding breaking force to the axle and then measuring amps and RPM and at the same time sustain the voltage level, and then make several measurements at different voltage levels)

I have seen absolutely no measurements to proven standards done by any other manufacturer so basically i regard such claims as at least "not credible" or "to be proven".

When you buy a car, there are standards for how the engine performance shall be measured so specifications are comparable.

Also lacking, is specifications for vibration force @rpm. This indicates how well balanced the motor is when leaving the factory (read: How much time that has been used to balance the motor).

As honest measurements, narrow manufacturing tolerances and time to select magnets and balance motores takes time, manufacturers not doing this can make cheaper motors just by saving this time.

If the "LRK gurus" say different, they have to prove it by honest and comparable measurements.

When we talk about high performance electric motors, they should be able to deliver the most power at the highest efficiency at the lowest weight.

It does matter, if you run dry before your time limit has expired. If so, you need to reduce the power load, and that is not good for high performance systems.

Also efficiency is mandatory to high power systems like cruising ships, where all efficiency gains reduces fuel consumption in the the diesel generators and thus reduces the operational costs. The electric motors used in ships are running at efficiency levels above 98% and you donnot see outrunners in ships. If outrunners were more efficient, they would be there too.

For normal sport purposes, where high efficiency is not a problem, outrunners are very well suited because of the lower manufacturing costs.

I think it is important to be clear about ones resons. There is no reason to have a "religious war" on "outrunners vs inrunners", they are just 2 different designs with their respective advantages and disadvantages.

If reason is cost of motor, buy the cheap one, if reason is high performance buy the expensive one that has a garantied performance specification.

I think my "laymans way of reasoning" is very simple: If outrunners were better, there would not be any inrunners and outrunners would be everywhere.
Peter Bech is offline Find More Posts by Peter Bech
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 07:13 AM
HyperFlight Support
Neil Stainton's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Stratford-upon-Avon
Joined Feb 2001
3,839 Posts
I tend to agree with both Peter and Wim - and especially that this is not a religious thing, and both have their place. However Christian Lucas's (the L in LRK) post #20 in http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584004 maintains there is no innate difference - at least for ironless motors.

Regards,

Neil.
Neil Stainton is offline Find More Posts by Neil Stainton
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 07:40 AM
Registered User
Ralph Weaver's Avatar
Indianapolis, IN USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,305 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu
That said I may make a smaller outrunner at some point in the future.

Steve
If you do one that meets the "F5J Out Runner Class" rules, but can do 50A, I'll be you first customer. Currently, the motor of choice seems to be the Hacker A20-20L.

Out Runner Class:
Motors are restricted to out runner type without gearboxes. The maximumize of the flux ring is 28 mm in diameter and 16 mm in length. There are no restrictions on airframe size or planform. Batteries are restricted to 7 Nicd / Nimh or 2 lithium polymer cells.
Ralph Weaver is offline Find More Posts by Ralph Weaver
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2007, 10:02 AM
BANNED!!!
soholingo's Avatar
Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
12,675 Posts
All I want is the Neu talent for motors applied to outrunners. I am sure Neu can make a better outrunner. That's all.

FWIW, My bandit is flying on a older plettenburg 7cell motor using 3s, It is faster than the outrunner Axi 2826/8, but not $300 faster, if you get my drift. I figure a Neu outrunner that can split the difference would be a nice product, ESPECIALLY if he can get them to 150 amps with high efficiencies.

Jay
soholingo is offline Find More Posts by soholingo
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Align bl35G doesn't make any sound pilotError Mini Helis 2 Nov 22, 2005 10:00 PM
Power usage doesn't make sense??? happypappy Power Systems 4 Sep 13, 2004 05:06 PM