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Old Jan 16, 2007, 02:27 PM
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Hurst Bowers designs build

This Winter's project is to build several models designed by the late Hurst Bowers, modeler extraordinaire and all-around grand gentleman. There are many I'd like to build, but I had to put some sort of limit on my ambition so I picked out my favorite seven and had parts laser-cut for each of them:

Buhl Sport Airsedan (34-5/8" span, April? or May? 1964 Aeromodeller magazine)
Kinner Sportster (39" span, Flyline kit design)
Farman Moustique (39-1/8" span, Flyline kit design)
Lincoln Sport (30" span, June 1975 Flying Models magazine)
Fairchild 51 (44" span, July 1972 Model Builder magazine)
Stearman C-3B (35" span, Flyline kit design)
Great Lakes Trainer (40" span, Flyline kit design)

(I keep a list of all his designs at http://webpages.charter.net/plumpe/hurstbowersplans.htm )

They'll all get RC and I'll drive them with electric outrunners except for the Great Lakes, which will get an OS .20 4-stroke. BTW, I've little experience with electric motivation and am open to suggestions.

I've got the lasercut parts in hand and have cut and shaped the strip stock I'll need for all seven, but there's no way I'll get them all built this winter because I'm notably slow. So I'm starting on just the first three and we'll see how far I get down the list.

Tip laminations are drying as I write this and the first to find the workbench is the Buhl Sport. It's first because Kiwi got me interested and I saw and fondled the full-scale in Minneapolis recently. The fuselage sides have 3 distinct breaks, but instead of building each side in one piece, then sawing and regluing at each juncture, I'm building the sides in 4 pieces each with scarf joints, then I'll join them in 3D. Hmmm, wonder if that's why I'm so slow?

- Dave Plumpe
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Old Jan 16, 2007, 02:35 PM
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Dave

I have been eyeing his TravelAir 6000 for rc. The Wallace Touraplane is another of my favorites. Don Srull just redid Hurst's SPAD 62 (somewhere on this forum). You are right about the gentleman part--Hurst was the quintessential Southern gentleman and a great friend. Here are a few photos of him taken not too long before he passed on.

Pat
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Old Jan 16, 2007, 03:01 PM
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Hi Pat, great to hear from you!

I suppose the Travel Air 6000 you're thinking about is the Flyline kit. I haven't put that on my list of Hurst's designs because the kit plans ascribe that design to his partner, Herb Clukey.

I don't know of any designs of Hurst's for a Wallace Touroplane or SPAD 62. I'd really appreciate any info you might have or be able to come up with so I can add them to my list.

-Dave
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Old Jan 16, 2007, 03:29 PM
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Dave

The Wallace Touroplane was manufactured by American Eagle. It was published in Max Fax. Check your list.

The SPAD must have been one of Hurst's "French Period" planes. Don't know if he designed it, but he did build it.

Pat
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Old Jan 16, 2007, 04:11 PM
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ahhh soooo on the Wallace Touroplane, and thanks for the photos, Pat. Some are new to me.
-Dave
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Old Jan 16, 2007, 09:19 PM
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I'll be curious to see your builds. I've got a couple of Hurst's plans scaled to about 26-28" for LPS that are on my someday pile. You've got a pretty heavy list there yourself. More than I could do in a winter even if I were retired.
bill
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 08:41 AM
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Dave,

Who did all drawings for the laser cutting?

Are there any commercial short kits of the designs?

Istvan
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 09:44 AM
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Bill-
I fly mostly larger glow models off a grass ultralight field, so tend to want spans of 36" or more. I'd like to see how you handle the smaller sizes, tho'. I have one of the LPS motors to replace a VL-50D on my 36" 9oz Macchi M-33, but haven't found a round tuit yet.

Istvan-
I did the drawings for lasercutting using AutoCAD 12. Some of Hurst's plans I've redone in CAD, so it's simple to make lasercutting layouts for those. For other plans I redraw pertinent portions in CAD so I can compare formers & ribs with the appropriate plan views and make adjustments if necessary. That doesn't always guarantee they'll fit perfectly, but does help a lot. For instance, I've noticed a former near the nose on the Buhl is a bit too large and another too small - easier to see when you have the parts in hand.

I don't know of any short kits, or I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble myself. Laser cutting is cheap compared with postage so while I was at it I had 2 sets of all the lasercut sheets made in case I destroy a wing or something. Getting more done would be easy, and if there's a lot of interest we could talk about it, but I don't yet know if there are any serious problems with my layouts.

The Buhl Sport fuselage is going together now. Note the hair clips used as clamps to hold the scarf joints while the glue dries. Hard to find cheap clamps that won't crush the structure!

-Dave
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlumpe
Bill-
I fly mostly larger glow models off a grass ultralight field, so tend to want spans of 36" or more. I'd like to see how you handle the smaller sizes, tho'. I have one of the LPS motors to replace a VL-50D on my 36" 9oz Macchi M-33, but haven't found a round tuit yet.
-Dave
Dave,
Did you mean the IPS not LPS?? I'm doing my first LPS WWI bipe now, SE5a at 24". Weight is around 4 1/2 oz. Thrust will be around 90gms.
bill
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 01:09 PM
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Dave,
Did you mean the IPS not LPS?? I'm doing my first LPS WWI bipe now, SE5a at 24". Weight is around 4 1/2 oz. Thrust will be around 90gms.
bill
Bill-
Is your 4.5oz ready to fly or without motor, battery, etc? If it's RTF, that's over 3oz static thrust for a 4.5 oz airplane. Should nearly hover, shouldn't it? BTW, your SE5 likely has about 215 sq.in. area - same as my Macchi, but a bit more drag. Gee, and I thought I worked real hard to keep my RTF down to 9oz!

My Macchi M-33 seaplane has been flying off the water nicely with an old VL-50D, which purportedly gives 98gm thrust on 6Vx2.34A=14Watts with the 7.25x4.5 P-1 prop. The Macchi can take up to an 8" prop and GWS says their LPS "A" version can produce 102gm on 7.2Vx1.95A=14W with their 8x4.3 prop or 110gm on 7.2Vx2.44A=17.6W with the 8x6 prop. Not quite like the VL-50D, but pretty close. Of course, that's needed only for takeoff. Also, I admit to having an IPS-A on the shelf as backup.
-Dave
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 02:28 PM
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Dave--please post a picture of your Macchi! This thread could really get me excited. The Touraplane is a nifty little guy--My dad flew one of them back around 1930--he also owned a couple of American Eagles (OX-5 powered versions). I have a neat photo of the touraplane that I will post--couple of "bathing beauties" in a publicity shot of the real one. I like the idea of enlarging Hurst's plans to the 36-48 size. Perfect.

Pat
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 02:51 PM
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Dave

Here is Don Srull's conversion of Hurst's Lincoln--it was built for coconut rubber power originally and is a great slow flyer for electric.
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlumpe
Bill-
Is your 4.5oz ready to fly or without motor, battery, etc? If it's RTF, that's over 3oz static thrust for a 4.5 oz airplane. Should nearly hover, shouldn't it? BTW, your SE5 likely has about 215 sq.in. area - same as my Macchi, but a bit more drag. Gee, and I thought I worked real hard to keep my RTF down to 9oz!

My Macchi M-33 seaplane has been flying off the water nicely with an old VL-50D, which purportedly gives 98gm thrust on 6Vx2.34A=14Watts with the 7.25x4.5 P-1 prop. The Macchi can take up to an 8" prop and GWS says their LPS "A" version can produce 102gm on 7.2Vx1.95A=14W with their 8x4.3 prop or 110gm on 7.2Vx2.44A=17.6W with the 8x6 prop. Not quite like the VL-50D, but pretty close. Of course, that's needed only for takeoff. Also, I admit to having an IPS-A on the shelf as backup.
-Dave
That's ready to fly. It's built from a short kit that Dave at DPCM models made up for me. You'll have to excuse me here since I've only been doing R/C for a couple of years. I have a Stevens Aero Diddle Rod with the short can 6:21 LPS. IIRC the thrust is around 50gms and the plane is 3.2 oz. So with the SE5a I have about 1/3 more weight and nearly double the thrust. A lot draggier tho. Actually all I'm looking for is a nice sedate flyer.
bill
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 03:20 PM
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Pat-

Here's my Macchi. This was Italy's (losing) entry in the 1925 Schneider Trophy race. My model has laminated ribs, formers & some longerons. VL-50D motor, 2x700mah LiPoly, 4-chans. Litespan covering & acrylic paints. Started design 12/99, first flown 7/06 - I'm slow. Not a Hurst Bowers design, but what the heck.

-Dave
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Old Jan 17, 2007, 11:28 PM
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What a beauty-- you should bring it over to the Kudzu waterfly at Dave Rees' place in Goldsboro, NC some time. That is a real piece of work, Dave.
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 07:50 AM
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Here's a photo off the web of the full scale Buhl Sport Airsedan. Last September I saw this plane at the Golden Wings museum in Minneapolis, climbed over & in it and got some detail photos, but this is a better overall shot than I could get in the crowded museum.

The Buhl is a sesquiplane, a biplane with a small lower wing. This one was used as a promo for Packard's diesel radial. Very sharp looking black fuselage & gold wings. I haven't decided on color scheme or dummy engine for my model.
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 09:41 AM
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I have the General Aristocrat, Buker Jungmann, maybe another in my kit closet. I built the Aristocrat many years ago with Ace Pulse rudder only and TD.020 glow power. The lifting fuselage made it bouyant like a blimp. I think that the Medusa 12mm brushless in a DXA gearbox and 400mah 2S or 3S lipo would be fine for power with two micro servos and common sub micro receivers. The cheap Esskay 400XT outrunner from Hobby Lobby ( now on sale) would also work well in larger Flyline models. Lipo packs and gear would need to be located as far forward as possible (AFFAP) in short nosed models. Pull-pull linkage to tail feathers would be a good idea to help cg without added nose weight. Be careful with beefing up.
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 09:51 AM
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Where are plans available for the (red) Farman 72 that Bowers is holding in one of the pics? It's a cool-looking low-wing, like its contemporary the Klemm L25. Any on-line info?

Jim R
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Nice thread Dave. It was Hurst's designs that got me back into modeling and lead me down the road to designing kits. My first kit was 100% inspired by his Monocoupe 90A design. I only wish I'd have had a chance to meet him. I'm also working on a L'Ouseiu Canari inspired by his design.
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 10:36 AM
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E-Challanged -
Thanks for the motor input. I've heard the Aristocrat was one of Hurst's favorites. That and the Curtiss Robin.
See the attempt to send Hurst's Aristocrat off for a final flight at http://www.his.com/~tschmitt/010JUL0...PHOTOPAGE.html

Jim R -
About the Farman 72, I know noooothiiinnnggg. Pat posted the photo, maybe he knows something.

-Dave
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 10:50 AM
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I have always been impressed by the Maxecuters models, do they know about our design and build-off contest? I think that a number of them fly "R/C assist"
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 01:39 PM
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The Buhl fuselage now has formers and the tail is built and rough-sanded. I'll use sewn figure-8 hinges.

I can't plank the fuselage or build the wings until I decide how to mount the wings. The original model was FF and the wings were glued on, but I'll have RC stuff to get at and I'd like some structure flexibility to survive one of my less than ideal landings.

I'm leaning toward having the wing assembly (top wing, both bottom wings, struts, wires) removable as a unit. The bottom wing root ribs would register on 1/8" dowels protruding from the fuselage sides, and would be held against the fuse with spring wire clips across the fuselage bottom, grabbing wire loops extending from the bottom of the lower wing LE & TE. The flying wires would terminate at the lower wing roots and the landing wires at the top wing spars next to the fuselage sides. The top wing would have 4 balsa dowels protruding down into the cabin opening to keep the wing registered, but all lifting forces would be countered by the flying & landing wires and be transferred to the fuselage through the lower wing's dowels & clips. To remove the wing assembly, I'd just unhook the lower wing clips, pull the lower wings off the dowels, and lift it all off the fuselage.

In a nose-first "landing", the top wing balsa dowels will shear, hopefully saving the structure. Same for a wingtip "landing". With proper geometry on the lower wing clips, I think I can save it also.

Anyway, that's the theory. But it'll take a lot of thought to get all the clips, dowels & wires lined up, so while I'm thinking, I'm going to start the Kinner Sportster.

-Dave
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 02:13 PM
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Dave -

Your Macchi is an absolute piece of art - do you have any intention to publish the plans?

-Sky
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
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Here is a shot of where my Buhl is at. I got it in a partly built state, the original builder was going to do it as a Pee Wee powered F/F, I am going to go down the electric 3 channel path.
Like Dave I haven't decided how I will arrange access to the gear, neither have I decided on a power plant.
Currently it sits at 3 on my "to finish off" list, as you can see it's basically all done except from a re-cover and wing struts. I also need to add one more cylinder to fill in where the pee wee was to go.
Nev
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Old Jan 18, 2007, 06:36 PM
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Thanks much for the kind words about my Macchi, fellas, and yes, I have thought about publishing it. But I think about a lot more things than I have time to do. The plans are in fine shape and I have a few construction photos, but most magazines (Flying Models being my favorite) probably would want some accompanying words. And I'd have to do some redesign 'cause I can't believe anyone else would want to laminate all those formers. Then there's the matter of the motor being obsolete and unobtainable. Yes, it's on my list, but not at the top.

While I'm working out wing attachment for the Buhl Sport, I've moved to the top of my list Hurst Bowers' Kinner Sportster. A Golden Age plane if there ever was one, this plan was one of his Flyline models, done to 1:12, yielding a 39" span. I've been wanting to do this as a larger glow-powered model but couldn't decide on a scale, so this will be built as he designed it except electric instead of a Cox .049.

Here's a web photo of a fullscale Kinner and a shot of the start of my model. Gad, I love sticks!

-Dave
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