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Old Aug 01, 2001, 05:39 PM
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georgetown ontario
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airwars "infra-red combat system for planes"

has anybody seen or used CSM's combat system on there plane, its an infra-red combat system.
if so does it work very well in sun light or work at all. http://www.rcmodels.org/csm/
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Old Aug 01, 2001, 05:46 PM
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PA ,USA
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I've seen these for full-sized aircraft but never on R/C planes. Looks like a lot of fun!
It would probably work in sunlight. Not sure though.
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Old Aug 01, 2001, 06:01 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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Yes we've tried it.

Sunlight is completely irrelevant to the sysstem and it triggers and receives very well.

I posted a bunch of stuff about it when it was new several months ago which has probably gone from the archives now. The system installs very easily and adds about an ounce to a Zagi (the chosen airframe for our tests).

The system consists of a small infrared gun, a processing unit and a small infra-red receptor. One of your servos plugs into your receiver through this unit and the unit takes it's power from the flightpack through the receiver. If you set the unit to continously fire you have a better chance of getting a hit but you can also set it to fire a burst when operated on a trigger channel (gear or rudder in the case of the zagi).

Here is what it looks like when fitted to a Zagi pod canopy.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...p=35342891&f=0

In use it is actually very difficult to manouver into a position to get a hit on your opponent, specially if there are two of you, as we found it too easy to evade. Ground testing showed that you had to be behind your opponent and close to something like 5-10metres to get into his target cone at the back of the model and register a hit. When your opponent suffers a hit his aileron servo will operate causing a wing-rocking motion for a predetermined time. This is optional and can be set via the software which is available as an extra.

IMHO the system needs either more combatants or better pilots (or maybe we are just too good at evading). The game would really come into it's own with six or more combatants and the laptop down at the field to download the scores - the coded infra-red "bullets" which shoot down your opponent are identifiable for each pilot so that kills can be credited. Without the laptop/software kills are indicated by a flashing red led on the unit. The unit is also usable in ground targets.

We will certainly be trying it again.

hth

Brian


[This message has been edited by leccyflyer (edited 08-01-2001).]
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Old Aug 01, 2001, 07:26 PM
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georgetown ontario
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thanks leccyflyer right now we are doing killer combat with the zagi no damage to each other when we hit (well not much) but would like to fly combat with scale planes and they wont be as forgiving. well maybe we might try the infra-red system to see how i goes but i don't think it will be a funny as knocking each other ou of the air :-)
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 01:15 AM
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Texas
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Moved to Modeling Science...
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 01:59 AM
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Too bad we need at least two identical system to work well in an Air to Air combat. Will plan to install a similar system on my live-video camera plane. I need local site opponent.

Having fun,
Charles
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 05:06 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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Charles

The marrying of your on-board video and the CSM system would certainly open a new dimension of this non-contact combat and make things much more fun.

Having had a go at some online combat the hard thing for me is the depth perception on screen- less of a problem in real life, but we all know how depth perception can cheat us when our model goes down a lot further out in the outback than we thought we were flying. Your system would presumably allow you to switch from flying the aeroplane with normal vision -with all the benefits of peripheral vision and knowing where your opponent is - to on-board video for the kill.

The trouble is I think our models are just too manouverable, making it too easy to evade in a one-on-one combat situation. With a third or fourth opponent I imagine the chances of getiing a hit increase dramatically.

The perfect airframes IMHO for this would be 600-sized EPP foam warbirds. Zagis are alright but it's not the same as being in a Spitfire IX and trying to shake a pair of Butcher Birds off your tail.

We might have a go with Lite Stiks but they wouldn't carry the weight of the CSM system so it would have to be full contact combat and there is then the issue of airframe damage to consider. I wonder whether a 280-sized Sopwith Pup or Albatros could carry the extra ounce in weight?

cheers

Brian
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 05:02 PM
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leccyflyer,

I am still hoping LS is the proper first choice because of its easi-to-repair nature. Zagi is not bad, but it is a little too fast for my responds. I believe a peeled CSM system can be carried by the LS. It is a laser or IR contact. Physical contact should still be avoided at all cost.

This can become a new field in E-FLIGHT,
Charles
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 06:10 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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We were discussing this again this evening and both my pal and I believe that the GWS Tiger Moth would easily carry the Airwars system- plus we both have Moths

Tally Ho!!

Leccy
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 06:11 PM
Most Exalted Windbag
Newark, DE USA
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Before you spend too much time and money, unless the "cone of fire/reception" is pretty big I don't think you'll have much luck.

Since I have a Mac I have to fly regular combat sims in "distant view of plane" to practice RC. Sometimes for the heck of it I try and shoot things with the machine gun... forget it. I can't tell the exact way the plane is pointing in two axes well enough to hit even stationary targets. Tear yourselves away from your dedicated RC sims and try it sometime.

I can bomb things if I'm going straight away or toward me, but not when flying across. I realize there is no real depth perception in the games, but I'm not that good with it in real RC as witnessed by the pole I flew into when I thought I was flying behind it.

Real pilots had miniscule hit ratios on other planes when they were sitting behind the gun looking down the barrel.

JMVHO
RB
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 07:33 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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RB

The cone that you need to get into isn't all that big- as reported- we might try to map it out some day soon to give better figures. However I imagine it is possibly represents something close to as big a target as the streamers that the .25 IC combat fliers use.

My point was that I bet you could fly round with your buddy for a long time trying to hit his streamer with little success, because you can both evade quite easily. Add a few more aeroplanes and it becomes more difficult to keep an eye on your six and eventually you just might get nailed. Charles idea of having onboard video as well is exciting as that does give you the potential to jump into the seat for the kill.

Oh and BTW we've already spent the money on the Airwars with three systems between us. I'll post any additional results here if we get a chance for a play this weekend.

Thought of something else - FWIW Cockpitmaster has a reasonable simulation of what the airwars system does (except you can also hit your opponent from in front or from the side- you still need to get pretty closehowever ) and even flying in a proper remote RCers position it is quite possible to shot down the AI opponents- less easy to hit human opponents online but unfortunately that is full contact combat and your guns don't work.

cheers

Brian

[This message has been edited by leccyflyer (edited 08-02-2001).]
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 07:56 PM
Most Exalted Windbag
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Sounds exciting if you can get some hits. Especially with onboard video as you mention.

Have fun!!!
RB
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Old Aug 02, 2001, 11:45 PM
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imagine these things in helis; that would be hard to do
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Old Aug 05, 2001, 06:21 PM
All under control, Grommit!
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Okay folks here's an update after the Litstik Airwars test we conducted this evening.

Two Litesticks were modified to carry the units. A small balsa gunholder was fixed to the front end of the stick giving sufficient elevation for the IR-LED gun to clear the gearbox wheel, but still shooting through the prop. Previous test have shown that an interrupter gear in not necessary as the firing/sample rate is sufficient that the prop makes no difference. The target sensor was mounted on a balsa stick towards the rear of the wing (where the pilot would sit as it happens). The airwars control unit was banded/taped under the stick on the C of G.

All up weight of my Litestik with the airwars unit and 7 cell 250mah AAA Nicd pack was 7.25 ounces. This is the second litestik I've built and essentially the airwars unit puts back on the ounce of weight which I had saved by leaving all the plastic bits off and being sparing with the epoxy. My pal Kev's Litestick was fitted with the same arrangement, the only real difference being that Kev's has the original motor and 9" prop whilst mine, being a newer kit has the carbon-brushed motor and 10x4.7 orange prop.

We mapped the cone of fire of the airwars unit as being about 12 metres range and about 120 -ish degrees of arc (say 60 degrees on each flank) Somewhat surprisingly there were also odd hits in a head to head situation (though these could well have been caused by reflection of the IR from sunglasses or tail surfaces). The controls were set to the default which gives a momentary full left-full right rudder response in the event and the firing was left as continuous.

The carbon-brushed motored Litestik will carry the airwars unti with no trouble, though the heavier model requires morte care than previously so as not to lose height in a turn. The normal motored Litestik struggled to maintain altitude. In comparison to trying the units with the Zagis the Litestiks make a much easier platform to hit and the reduced speed and power available make evasion less simple. Several hits were scored by both protagonists and in the second bout my little lad Timmy took the controls and managed to score several hits as well, including some dastardly ground strafing.

So it works- but the Litstik was just marginal on power, usable with the carbon upgraded motor but not really usable with the original motor and a better choice would probably be the GWS Tiger Moth or a 280 powered slow flyer - like the Kavan Fokker DVIII/Sopwith Pup. These would need more care in placing the sensor so as to avoid shileding it against hits.

Hope this is of some use to anyone thinking of trying the system out.

cheers

Brian (and Timmy)
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Old Aug 17, 2007, 02:26 PM
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If anybody is interested in a cheaper and different way to do combat, a friend of mine has posted schematics for a simple interface circuit (no pic chips, etc) that will fool the $20 Hobbyzone Sonic Combat Module into working with standard electronics. These combat modules are cheap, light, can be found at most LHS, and work very well. Simply solder up the homemade interface circuit, plug the SCM into it (no need to take it apart since there is no modding done to the module it's self), and off you go. I'll post a link in a sec here...

Here ya go...schematic and instructions...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=711760

Another advantage to going this route is you can use the other cheap modules they sell, such as the drop module, light module, etc.
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