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Old Dec 29, 2006, 12:45 AM
cousin Dave
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Huntsville, Alabama
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Home Depo Foam Dow 150 Pink Foam

Can someone tell me the good vs bad atributes of this "over the counter" foam that I can purchase at Home Depo? Dow 150 pink foam. I can get it in 2 inch or 1 inch thick sheets. I'm interested in Thermal Duration wings of 3 meters. how does it compare to the Hiload 60 foam? Is it the poor mans foam? I'd like a winch proof wing, but I'd settle for something less for the convience of purchasing the foam locally.

Here are some test specimens I cut from the pink foam.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=395

Thanks,
Dave
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Old Dec 29, 2006, 01:00 AM
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Portland Intl, Oregon, United States
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I am no expert on foams but I can tell you that I have built several wings with 150 but none of them were near that large. It was all I could get at the time too.
the 150 means it is rated at 15 pounds per square inch compresion strength. 250 is 25 psi/sq in and so on. HiLoad 60 is just that, 60 pounds per square inch.
Higher load rating will yeild a stronger/stiffer wing. Of course skin thickness will play a large roll in how strong the wing is as well.
I dont know much at all about spars but I assume that 3 meter wings would require a pretty beefy spar no matter what kind of foam is used.

As far as cutting goes it cuts pretty much just the same as 250 or HL60 does.

sorry I dont know much more, I hope some guys with more technical knowlege will
help out as well.

TIM
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Old Dec 29, 2006, 11:18 AM
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Germantown, Maryland
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Are you sure it is Foamular 150, not Foamular 250? The Home Depots around here sell stuff called "basement wall insulation". It is pink but is not specifically marked as Foamular 150 or 250. It feels more like Foamular 250 to me. Most building supply places that carry only one density of foam will carry the 25psi stuff since it is useful to more buyers than 15psi stuff. You can substitute 25psi for 15psi but not the other way around when the code calls for 25psi.

Whether you want to use Foamular 150 for a 3M wing depends on what type of spar system you will use. If the wing will use a carbon skin to take the bending loads then you will want to use a higher density foam (HiLoad 60, Spyder foam, Foamular 600) for the root panel (assumed to be the first 24" or 30"). If you use the Foamular 150 or Foamular 250 for the root panel of a 3m wing that has a stressed skin then you will need a very thick skin at the root area as A6 Intruder mentioned.

A small correction for Dave: Owens Corning foam is PINK and is called Foamular XXX. Dow foam is BLUE and gas many names such as Score Board (the 15psi foam),Square Edge (the 25psi foam), HiLoad 60 (60psi foam). There is no Dow PINK foam. Pink is the trademark color for Owens Corning foams.

In general the lighter foams are easier to cut acurately and they cut faster. The higher density foams have more internal stresses so the tend to lift and move more during and between cuts which is the largest source for foam cutting errors.

In general you don't want Foamular 150 or Dow Scoreboard IF you have access to Foamualar 250 or Dow Square Edge. That is because the weight savings is very small but the difference in compression strength at least can be significant. However, most people use the foam that is available locally since it is hard to get foam from far away and any extruded foam can be used as long as you use it appropriately. This thread may help to understand which type of foam is suitable for which application. Higher density foams are better for ding resistance in a bagged wing with a composite skin. Higher density foams will make the wing stronger in bending IF the wing skin is used fior bending strength (a stressed skin wing or a wing with no spar in the ordinary sense).

Tell me about your intended wing structure and spar system and intended wing skin and I can tell you if you want to use Foamular 150.
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Old Dec 30, 2006, 10:11 AM
cousin Dave
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Huntsville, Alabama
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Phil,
The foam is labeled 150, not 250. Thanks for correcting me about the Mfgers names. I was wondering about the blue vs pink differences. I'm going to check other building supplies for other types of foam locally. Home Depo is the only one that carries the 2 inch thick foam and only the 150.

I'm starting to grasp the details of load distribution, stress skin, and I beam structures. I'm wresting the differences, ie, the high cost of carbon, I'm pondering the marriage of a FG wing and a healthy structural carbon spar. Knowing the dent resistances and other aspects that I will have to live with.

So, if I go that route, I will cut the wing like Jon Stone did, embed the carbon spar, and glue the wing back together, then bag it. The spar will be carbon top and bottom with a middle vertical grain balsa spacer wrapped in kevlar. Then bagged that mix of ingredients during its cure process.

Dave
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Old Dec 30, 2006, 09:15 PM
cousin Dave
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Well, I've be searching for sources of hi-load60 and I can't find any. There are plenty and numerous articles on airfoils using this Hiload 60, but who sells this foam?

Even going directly to Owens and Dow, they don't tell where to buy it.

Also, in my search, I found that Owens has a pink Foamular600 foam which appears to be 60 psi foam. Again no sources were provided. I haven't seen this foam documented in the airfoil cutting results though. http://www.owenscorning.com/comminsu...t=19&System=80

Can someone point me to a sales location?
Thanks,
Dave
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Old Dec 30, 2006, 10:31 PM
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Germantown, Maryland
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If you use a full spar such as you describe then the denser foam will do nothing other than increase dent resistance. It will not make any difference to bending stiffness or strength of the wing. Denser foam may help with torsional stiffness of the flap and aileron if those surfaces are not faced with bias fabric. If you do face the edges of the flap and aileron then it makes no difference which foam is used, they will be equally stiff with either foam.

You cannot buy foam direct from Dow or Owens Corning. You must buy it from one of their dealers. You can only buy whatever brand and type of foam that the retail dealer happens to carry unless you special order the foam. But to special order the foam you must buy a full "unit" of foam because that is the minimum order that the dealer can buy. A unit of foam makes a stack of foam that is 2' X 8' X 16' and costs on the order of $1300.00.

To find HiLoad 60 or Foamular 600 you need to call all of the building supply or insulation dealers in your area. Places that specialize in sup..........ABORT

I've decided that a search is a smarter approach rather than recomposing and typing all of this......

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...nk#post4633916

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...00#post5252142

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...00#post5418441

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...00#post5732736

You see HiLoad 60 foam mentioned so much because Mark Drela specifies higher density foams in all of his plans and a lot of people copy what Mark does. Mark only specifies higher density foams for the dent resistance though, He prefers to use very light skins with denser foams. You may not know that most commercially available vacuum bagged DLG wings use lower density foams (Dow Square Edge or Foamular 250). It is faster and less expensive to use a lighter foam with a heavier skin on DLG wings.

In my area, Lowes carries the Dow Square Edge which is equivalent to Foamular 250.
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Old Dec 30, 2006, 10:58 PM
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Kansas City, MO
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A minor correction: According to Dow's website, Scoreboard is 25 psi not 15. This is the best foam I've been able to find in my area. I get it at Lowe's in 1.5 inch thickness.

http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/na/res-...SCOREBOARD.htm

Ivan
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Old Dec 30, 2006, 11:51 PM
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I went on a massive search for HiLoad60 here in Oregon and called every building supply, roofing contractor, heat/airconditioning dealer/installers, flooring companies, concrete companies and walk in freezer installers I could find in the area of our largest city(Portland). I came up with absolutely no luck. No one carries Hiload 60 or Formular600. As Phil said, they were all happy to order me a UNIT of it but no one actually used it or sells it.
I finally found a building supply company that specializes in roofing that could get it by the4"x2'x8' sheets. The only draw back was to get four sheets shipped to their nearest store (35 miles away from my home) would cost an extra 50 dollars or they would deliver it to my home for 80 dollars. That added to the 30 dollars per sheet made it really expensive. So my final result was to drive 220 miles each way to their Tacoma Washington store where they carried it. Then when I arrived, I found they store it outside and most of the sheets were weathered and warpped from sitting outside. I luckily found a pallet of it that was on the bottom of a big stack and I got some good ones from it.

So my two cents worth here is if you can figure out a way to use less dense foam do it. If not and you can find it anywhere even remotely close, it might be worth the trip to get it but make sure you buy some extra sheets cause it seems to be getting harder and harder to get. I actually remember when it was available here locally but that was years ago.

Good luck on your building and your search for HiLoad60..

take care
TIM

P.S. my local Lowes doesnt carry any foam but they can order OC pink 250 by the sheet but the last time I did that it took over a month to get two sheets.
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Old Dec 31, 2006, 12:14 AM
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Germantown, Maryland
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Ivan

Thanks for the correction. I've made that same mistake in a few posts I think. I would have continued passing on bad information if you had not corrected me. I looked it up, Dow 15psi foam is called "residential sheathing". So the "Scoreboard" foam is exactly the same foam as "Square Edge" except that, as the names imply, "Scoreboard" has score lines in various places on the surface of the foam so that it can be easily broken into smaller sheets on the job site. And "Square Edge" does not have score lines but does have nice square edges. This is to distinguish it from foam boards that may have tounge and groove edges for instance.
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Old Dec 31, 2006, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLIDERGIDER
Well, I've be searching for sources of hi-load60 and I can't find any. There are plenty and numerous articles on airfoils using this Hiload 60, but who sells this foam?

Even going directly to Owens and Dow, they don't tell where to buy it.

Can someone point me to a sales location?
Thanks,
Dave
I also looked all over - ended up calling Dow and they got me in touch with a supplier about 10 miles away. Did you call the customer service number? Try here Dow Phone #

Bruce
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