Espritmodel.com Telemetry Radio
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajbaker
... I put up the wrong link earlier. This is the motor I have (still 6 left - 1 was installed and worked great on the WH):
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.co...?number=G16473

Arnold
Above Goldmine motor $1.70 ea ($10 min), + $7.50 ship

$6.25 Tower hobbies motor + $5 ship at:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJSS5&P=7



ajbaker,

With your Goldmine motor, installed in your WH:

at full throttle, flying the WH with the Gold motor,
... a) was it faster, same, slower than the OEM WH motor?
... b) was it quieter, same, or louder than the OEM WH motor?
... c) was flight time longer, same, or shorter?


Comparison, Towerhobbies motor ... vs. Goldmine motor

a) "Towerhobbies motor = 19200 RPM. ... vs. 16200 RPM for the Goldmine motor, ... (Tower 18.5% higher RPM?)

b) Wt: Tower 80.2 g ... vs. Gold 71 g. , ... (Tower 1/3 oz heavier.)

c) Current: Tower 1.3 mA ... vs. Gold 0.5 A to 3.3 A. (?)

d) Torque: Tower 1172 g-cm ... vs. Gold 839 g-cm. (Tower torque 39% more than Gold?)

e) Diameter: Tower 29 mm ... vs. Gold 22.7 mm (Tower is closer to the oem WH diameter)

f) Shaft diameter: Tower 2.6 mm ... vs. Gold 3.3 mm (Tower closer to oem WH diameter)

g) Stated use: Tower - hobby rc airplanes ... vs. Gold - vacuum cleaner

Does the above, suggest the Tower motor, will have
1) 18% more RPM (hence more speed potential at launch and climb)
2) 30% more torque,
3) less current draw?,
4) a closer to oem size match, on overall diameter, and shaft diameter,
5) but a 1/3 oz heavier wt than the Gold?
6) better suitability as stated use being rc airplanes?


Hence, would the Tower motor be a better pick, for overall speed performance and longer flight times and matching motor diameter sizes?

Price compare:
... 2 Tower motors, x $6.25 + $5 ship = $17.50
... 6 Gold motors, x $1.79 + $7.50 ship = $18.25.

Did your Gold motor, slip in the housing for the oem WH motor, making it an ok fit to the Wh foam?

Did your Gold motor shaft diameter, allow fitting the OEM WH propeller, without drilling modification?

Are the Tower motor RPM and torque advantages good enough, to offset the better buy on the Gold motors? .... I.e., 2 Tower motors, for about the same price as 6 Gold motors.

Knowing all the above,
and what you know about your Gold motor flying in the WH,
if you had no other motors but the OEM WH motor,
and were going to stay with a brushed setup for now, ... would you get 2 Tower or 6 Gold motors for about the same $18 price?


----------

Last, how about this speed 400 motor, for planes up to 20 oz, with rpm at 25,000 free, 15,400 with load? at:

$7.90 Speed 400 motor, 8.4v, coming 8/29/08
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 10:50 AM
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Both these motors will be near identical in performance with the stock motor on the W/H. If you are looking for better performance go brushless. Brushless might reduce flight times though as these brushed motors are pretty thrifty in the amps dept.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 08:11 PM
Argue for your limitations
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Lincoln, CA
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Hobby-lobby vs goldmine motors

"Knowing all the above,
and what you know about your Gold motor flying in the WH,
if you had no other motors but the OEM WH motor,
and were going to stay with a brushed setup for now, ... would you get 2
Tower or 6 Gold motors for about the same $18 price?"

capt hit it right on the head. Both motors will work just fine. Good call, capt.

I had to use a slightly larger prop (6x5 see: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHHX3&P=7) to use the goldmine motor. A 6x4 gives more speed though.
As I recall, I had to drill out the prop adapter to fit the goldmine motor.
It was slightly louder.
As far as the rest goes, I suggest you get both (actually all 3) and let us know which works best for you. You will need a large variety of props and a lot of time, too. We can all learn something since you are into it. I used the stock motor for 2 flights and the goldmine motor for 2 or 3 flights (can't remember for sure). Since it was a month or more ago, I don't remember much about the performance. It seems the goldmine motor gave more thrust but not as much speed. Remember, though, I had severe downthrust problems to sort out (see the pic below for the final fix - wow!!). I play with brushed motors once in a while. I have about 8 different ones in stock to play with on new planes. However, after getting a bird flying, I always switch to brushless (the TORQUE is so massive, you don't need a gearbox). I have 15 various BL motors that I experiment with. The odd thing is that while one motor/prop (B or BL) is ideal for one pilot/plane, the same combo may not work as well on an identical plane with a different pilot. The doggone combos are elusive. I have tried many combos suggested on this and other threads and found that nothing beats just trying different combos to find out what works the best for me. Generally, I start with measuring the thrust to weight ratio (motor/prop only) and using the best combination. Of course, I make sure to stay within the specs of the motor/esc/battery specs. A WattsUp meter (or equiv) is a MUST if you want to play the prop/motor game. On a side note, I am getting started on a Ziroli P-51 Mustang for my next plane.
I hope this helps and I apologize again for my typo earlier.

Arnold

P.S. Update - I looked over my lab reports and the WH Stock gave 17.8 oz thrust with 8-cell Nimh. The goldmine gave 18.2 oz thrust (not much diff) with the same battery (recharged). Side bar note: The BL motor setup I mentioned earlier (and what I am currently using) gives 31.1oz thrust on 3S1P 2200mah (flew it for 49 mins this morning with AP cam).

P.S.S. - After reviewing everything, IMO Tower Hobbies motor is a better pick.

P.S.S.S. Once you go BL, you will never look back. Ask capt his opinion.
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capt
Both these motors will be near identical in performance with the stock motor on the W/H. If you are looking for better performance go brushless. Brushless might reduce flight times though as these brushed motors are pretty thrifty in the amps dept.
capt, ajbaker, thx.

To forum:

1) can a brushless motor be added to the Wh stock Esc and ni-MH 7 cell battery pack?

... Is that what you meant, when you said, adding the brushless may reduce flight times?

2) If I add a brushless, what specs do I need, to match up with the OEM WH esc and battery pack? (Or, do I need a new esc speed controller, for the new brushless?)

3) Or, generally, what info do I need, to go brushless, for the WH, and what minimum parts do I need, and at the least cost, that would give a notable speed boost, "&" flight time boost?

4) What is the largest size, type, propeller you found beneficial to the WH speed/power, without cutting into the fuselage?

---
Regarding the 1700 RPM Goldmine robot motors I ordered/received, and found too slow to flight power the WH yesterday:... Called company, they will take them back, and give credit for the motors, less a 15% restock fee, I pay to ship back, and no reimbursement for ship.

Cost of not knowing a 1700 RPM motor will not fly a plane: ... if I return the motors: $18.03 - $2.52 = (-$15.51) loss. ... if I keep the motors, no present known use: (-$18.03) loss.

---
New forward strategy: Don't buy in advance, unless the present item (motor, etc.) is unusable.

---
One buy may be a $15 used WH, that would give a second ni-mh battery pack, while also being a second airplane frame for parts, or to add:
1) a faster bushless motor and esc combo for about $18
2) a 11.4v lipo battery with 1650 mah or so hopefully under $25, and
3) a peak three light charger for $19.

$15 .... 2nd WH Plane
$18 ... BL motor + esc
$25 ... 11.4V lipo 3xAA 1650+mah
$19 ... 1-4 cell, 3 light peak 12v charger
-----
$77 for 2nd WH with BL Lipo charger,
===

The 2nd WH provides a backup OEM a) motor, b) charger, c) 3 ch OEM transmitter, and d) 2nd ni-MH battery pack, ... for the 1st WH.

Net result:

... 2 WH's,
... 2 different flying experiences (bushed and faster BL),
... 3 battery packs for long flying,
... Field charger, allowing a 1st flight lipo charge, while flying the 2 ni-MH's, giving a 2nd lipo flight later the same day.

Giving 4 battery flights, per field trip. ... Possibly 30 min + 30 min on lipos, and 15 min + 15 min on the ni-MH's, ... = 1 hr 30 min of flying time per field visit, ... compared to about 15 min now with only 1 WH, and 1 ni-MH bat pack.

The lipo BL 2nd WH conversion could be delayed, while tweaking the 2nd $15 WH cg, rudder extension, wing spar, re-soldering motor contacts (if motor is cutting out), etc.

With 2nd WH, flight time doubles from present 1st WH.

Prices should continue falling on BL and lipo equipment, while tweaking the 2nd WH. When a great BL lipo package price emerges, convert the 2nd WH to BL & lipo. Use the second ni-MH pack on the 1st WH.

Flying time becomes 3x the doubled earlier flying time. Or 6x the present 1st WH.

Net net, possible future rc spending:

... $77 plus $5 motor = $82,

... increases flying time 6X, gives added backup equipment, and two different planes: brushed and the faster BL.

Drawback: no 4 channel ailerons, such as in the under $200 free ship 77" Hawk.
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 06:54 AM
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One word of caution. I'd noticed that the WH's speed controller and receiver seem to use a somewhat different range and end points than standard RC gear. If memory serves, when I put a standard receiver (Berg 4L) in the WH, the motor wouldn't start spinning at all until the throttle stick was at 50% and I was thinking it hit full power either at 80% or 120$. I could adjust a computer radio to work OK with it, but it wasn't normal.

The thing I never tried was using the original RC gear with a standard brushless speed controller. Unfortunately, I gave pieces away and no longer have an original receiver to test. Most speed controllers need to 0% throttle to arm and often 50% and 100% to set features and obviously to run. With those requirements, I don't know that the original radio would work with a brushless speed controller.

The question has come up enough times that I'd love to know the answer. Has anyone out there used a brushless motor with the original radio?
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 07:49 AM
It works, don't touch it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark963
One word of caution. I'd noticed that the WH's speed controller and receiver seem to use a somewhat different range and end points than standard RC gear. If memory serves, when I put a standard receiver (Berg 4L) in the WH, the motor wouldn't start spinning at all until the throttle stick was at 50% and I was thinking it hit full power either at 80% or 120$. I could adjust a computer radio to work OK with it, but it wasn't normal.

The thing I never tried was using the original RC gear with a standard brushless speed controller. Unfortunately, I gave pieces away and no longer have an original receiver to test. Most speed controllers need to 0% throttle to arm and often 50% and 100% to set features and obviously to run. With those requirements, I don't know that the original radio would work with a brushless speed controller.

The question has come up enough times that I'd love to know the answer. Has anyone out there used a brushless motor with the original radio?
I have tried the same thing. The brushed ESC that it comes with starts at 50% throttle. i think that i may have trashed mine anyway.
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 10:06 AM
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Cash if your thinking about going brushless I would go read up in the Easy Star threads as they have a wealth of info over there, the ES is basically the airplane the WH copied.

A 2000-3000Kv in-runner seems to be the ball park for going brushless.

And that stock ESC is for brushed motors only.

Or something like this-

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=470
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 12:12 PM
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I tried to re-use the stock rx with a brushless motor and esc in an E-Flite SE5a. It didn't work as you suggest. It wouldn't arm.
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 07:00 PM
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I just plugged in a brushless motor and ESC into the stock RX and it seems to work fine.
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Old Aug 16, 2008, 08:07 PM
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Interesting. I imagine there can be some big variants between identical units.
What esc are you using?
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 12:36 AM
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Cheepo 12a TP, That was with the stock TX also.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...eed_Controller
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capt
I just plugged in a brushless motor and ESC into the stock RX and it seems to work fine.

capt,

What are the specs, brand, on the brushless motor and esc speed control?

(Late Edit: capt, noticed above, you used the TowerPro 9g w12A Brushless Speed Controller. ... What is the A rating of the stock WH esc? ... Which brushless motor did you use?)


Have you tried to fly your WH with it, to see how it performs?
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 03:11 AM
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Joined Oct 2006
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WH rcvr and Brushless setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt
I just plugged in a brushless motor and ESC into the stock RX and it seems to work fine.

I had the same experience as capt and mark963. Well, sort of. The WH rcvr worked fine with a BL esc and motor (after some radio adjustments). I got about 120% of normal movement with my servos. However, in the interest of research, I tried the WH rcvr on 3 other motor/esc combos (all brushless). None of them would arm and one of them just beeped the motor (like throttle was not at minimum). Conclusion - It is just not predictable what combos the rcvr will work with and I would advise not to take a chance with it on a brushless setup. Plus, it is an undesirable 27mhz and 72mhz radio systems are cheap. Plus, I am only using it because I don't care what happens to the plane if I get too carried away and crash it or if spurious RF signals cause it to crash.
The pics attached show it on my chuck glider and it flys great. An all out crash on it would cost me $7 to replace the plane.

Arnold
P.S. The motor/esc that works is made for planes less than 8 oz (not usable in a WH).
And, sorry for the crummy pictures. My wife has my good camera in England. I will have it back on Monday when she returns.
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 03:16 AM
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Battery Connectors

Mr_Cash
Replace those crappy Tamiya connectors with Deans. Anyone who values their plane uses the Deans connectors. They are the standard in RC.

Arnold
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajbaker
Mr_Cash
Replace those crappy Tamiya connectors with Deans. Anyone who values their plane uses the Deans connectors. They are the standard in RC.

Arnold
Present connectors in excellent condition and working fine, I'll pass, until they present a problem.

---
To forum:

Will this work, with the std WH receiver and transmitter? At:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ight=easy+star


So, no one here, has found a working brushless, esc combo, with lipo batteries, that will work reliably, with the WH receiver and transmitter, and notably boost WH speed and flight time, at a low price?

---
Tested newly installed Speed 400 motor: the speed, was slightly slower than the stock motor.

---
Has anyone found a substitute brushed motor, same WH stock esc and everything else, that they have personally flown in the WH, that
a) worked better and faster than the stock motor,
b) did not cut out,
c) did not reduce flight times,
d) had the same overall diameter, and shaft size, as the stock motor, that will not require prop or fit modification.

---
Net net, the most cost effective, best WH, may be:

- a stock WH,
- with the cg at 35% of the root chord via forward battery placement,
- possibly a home made rudder extension,
- clear packing tape reinforcement of the fuselage nose, wing tips, wing joints at the fuselage so the wings don't move, wing spar reinforcement, and canopy, .. to assist in crash protection and flight stability.

If the lipo & brushless tech and speed is of interest, it may be best to look for a second plane fully designed for and with it, ... such as the under $200 free ship 77" Icon Hawk plane. Or other even lower priced such plane, with brushless and lipo from the initial design. Giving two planes to fly, as they were designed.
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