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Old Aug 01, 2007, 08:14 PM
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Double Delta Finishing Touches

The Delta is now finished except for testing. The control system works like a charm and the trims work as normal. The model was completed except for the open bottom front reserved for the battery to balance. I was surprised to find that the battery took max forward space to balance level. This called for beefed up mounting and added about 1.5 ounces. The battery now mounts back a little and causes a nose down balance for safer testing. The total weight must now be around 28 ounces. Charles
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Old Aug 01, 2007, 09:39 PM
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Charles that is one very sexy looking aircraft! Would you please explain how you mix elevons and the canard together? I'm still not 100% sure how to do it. Thanks
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Old Aug 01, 2007, 09:50 PM
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The model looks great. The cockpit lines and the winglets are both very nice details that complement the design. It certainly fits into the family other canard models you have made.

I like designing and experimenting, so EDF is something new to try at some point. The design challenge of ducting is interesting to me. Basically I like to try building anything that is sligthly out of the normal, or at least different to other models at the flying field. I am still a bit wary of fast flying models, but as I am gaining more experience and flying progressively more challenging models, a fast EDF model is a challenge that I look forward to.
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Old Aug 02, 2007, 05:41 AM
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Double Delta Double Elevons

Mustang Ace. Magic 612 explained how the control system should be connected on page 54 post 804. My schematic is shown on page 56 post 833 and depicts the top view of the model both physically and electrically.Note that the canard servos lay flat with the outputs to the right and the main wing servos lay flat with the outputs to the left. The control rods are on the bottom surfaces. My Airtronics transmitter is set for Delta Wing. A wye connector was connected to the receiver ELEVATOR. One output of the wye goes to the main wing left servo and the other output goes to the canard right servo as viewed from the top. Another wye connector was connected to the receiver AILERON. These outputs go to the main right and the canard left servos. I believe that both servos were set for NORM in the transmitter but one or both might require REV for correct movement. When bench testing, the servos were placed right or left for correct movement. I have the EPA end point adjustments set at 75% which gives 3/8" to 1/2" UP and DOWN movement of the surfaces. The control horns were drilled at 1/2" below the control surface.At 75% EPA I have slow movement so that exponential should not be needed for test flying. The receiver was mounted central between the wings so that the smallest wye connectors would reach. I hope this explains to your satisfaction and I welcome further discussion. Charles
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Old Aug 02, 2007, 02:09 PM
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Charles,I'm currently converting my crashed V-Diamond to a EDF canard and want to try out elevons mixed with the canard,thanks for the help.
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Old Aug 02, 2007, 05:34 PM
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John235, Thanks for your kind comments. I also enjoy owning something different. Speaking of canards and unusual models,I believe that I have seen more of the these from Australia pictured in QEFI magazine than in any other country. There is a set of Georgia Goose plans down there somewhere. Let us hear of any progress with your designs. Charles
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Old Aug 02, 2007, 09:57 PM
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LEZ Voyager COG Shift

The Battery was replaced in the Voyager which removed 1.5+ ounces. This shifted the CoG from 15.75 to 16.25 level and to 16.5 a bit nose down. The motor had been cutting off early in the flight possibly because of low voltage. It now has the TP2100 installed which should supply the 18.5 amps to the Medusa easily. Will fly it tomorrow if conditions are good and report the results. BTW the measurements are in inches measured from the canard LE. Charles
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Old Aug 03, 2007, 10:45 AM
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Voyager Test

The weight removal and the CoG shift caused the Voyager to climb nose UP and on glide the ship went into nose UP-DOWN oscillation just like a toy glider needing nose weight or a shift in wing position. the canard stalled just before touch down and the nose gear caused the nose to bounce UP and required full power for air speed recovery to a better landing. The 1.5 ounce loss at 4.5 inches from the CoG will require a 0.5 ounce addition at 16 inches at the canard LE. Bottom line: stick to CoG at no more than 16 inches back. The new battery failed to prevent power loss which now calls for the replacement of the speed control. Charles
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Last edited by canard addict; Aug 03, 2007 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Add a sentence
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Old Aug 03, 2007, 08:02 PM
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Hey Charles - I'll be looking forward to your Double Delta flight report to hear how you like the coupled servos setup with the canard surfaces and ailerons. Keep us posted!
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Old Aug 03, 2007, 09:38 PM
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Delta Testing

Magic612, I am also anxious to see the control system perform. there are several reasons to wait a while before the test fly. The main one is that there is an intermittant fight going on between the motor and the control surfaces. With the motor off, I have not seen a glitch to 120 feet with the antenna down. When the throttle is advanced it is solid for a while and then the surfaces begin to do a come and go dance. The problem seems to occur at certain points like 15 ft, 50 ft. etc. Full antenna stops the problem but I have not done a long range test. The ESC was previously in my Cango and started wild glitching after several months there. It was returned to the factory and it came back with what looked like a new unit with my wires attached. A new and different ESC arrived today. I feel that it will correct the problem. I also would like some cooler air, a calm day and a time when our field has been cut.Of course I want to savor the new model a while before taking any risk.Cold feet and nervous? Yes now but not at first. Since it is a modified Egret which flew great without trim correction, the Delta seemed a cinch to fly and my confidence soared until we spoke of my two crashed Firebats, short coupling and thick draggy wings. Most of my confidence in the design is still there but I could use an expert to test fly it. Charles
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Old Aug 04, 2007, 06:55 AM
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Charles, In post 919 you wrote that the Egret is your best flying canard. Can you please explain what flight characteristics make you say that. It would also be interesting if you could outline the differnences between the Egret and your your two goose designs - Is the Egret is just a low wing version of your first goose, or is there more to it that that?

If you have interferance proplems due to the ESC, maybe you could try some electrical tape to bundle the three motor wires togeher at least in a few places. I think that minimising the loop area of these wires can reduce the RFI. I use a CC35, with a JR PCM radio and AXI 2808 motor. I never noticed any glitches, but thats the issue with PCM I suppose.
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Old Aug 04, 2007, 02:34 PM
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Canard Own Design Discussion

Mustang Ace, How about some pictures of the EDF project? The original battery was returned to the Voyager and the problem of motor shut down was corrected with a new ESC. John235, Thanks for the questions which I will attempt to answer starting with my canard designs. The pictures were chosen to show the difference in the models. G1 is yellow and red, G2 is red and white, The Egret is blue and white and G3 is silver and red. There are some common parameters: 1: The wings have 4" of vertical separation. 2: the canard areas are 30% of the main wing areas. 3:All airfoils are the same with flat bottoms.All weigh less than two pounds.4: all have 3.5 degrees of decalage.5: The bottoms of the wings are parallel to the thrust lines except on G1 which has some down thrust. 6: All wings are 48" span except the Egret's which is 43". The Egret was scaled down 10% from G2. 7: All main wings are swept back the same and have no dihedral except G1. Comments on yellow and red G1: The barn door ailerons are sluggish with no differential. The thrust line is high and the prop is too close to the wing. The high thrust line causes a nose down moment which hinders inside loops. I added some down thrust to possibly help. The prop was placed forward to try to reduce rearward weight. The prop makes more noise being close to the wing. The swept back wing has unnecessary dihedral. The canard is rectangular with dihedral. It has just adequate power with the Aveox inrunner and is a smooth flyer except in bumpy conditions when it tends to wing rock in a climb. G2, the Ga. Goose, was changed to eliminate the problems of G1 and is a great performer and is my design standard. Both wings sweep back with no dihedral. The fuselage was extended 4.5" and the thrust line was dropped down to about the center of the fuselage. The motor went rearward since the center of gravity moved forward with the fuselage length. Several have said that I got lucky. Strip ailerons were added and the roll is OK for a high winger. It flys inverted with a little prop noise. The Egret is a 10% reduced copy of the G2 design with a low wing and a high canard. It does perfect axial rolls,I think because of the low wing lifting toward the axis. The rudder up front works well and allows knife edge action with a touch of UP elevator. It will even climb during knife edge with extra elevator added. It does a decent stall turn and will turn with the wings held level. This makes it my best performer. It weighs in at 28 ounces with the Medusa motor and spans 43". G3, The silver one, Is another G2 with a face lift. The canard sweeps back, the cockpit is forward and the bottom of the fuselage was eliminated under the canard. It is 28 ounces with the new Hacker A30-28S with 9-6 prop and goes straight UP! I hope the pictures tell more. Charles
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Last edited by canard addict; Aug 04, 2007 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Clarifications
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Old Aug 04, 2007, 03:59 PM
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Charles glad you asked!, It's a pretty unique design based off the V-Diamond. I'm calling it VEDF
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Old Aug 04, 2007, 06:05 PM
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Thanks for showing, Mustang. You seem to have lots of ideas and just think of what you may do on the long road ahead. John235, thanks for the ideas about the glitch problems. The Georgia Goose got a new outrunner today which is similar to the one in the silver goose so it should now also go straight up. Charles
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Old Aug 04, 2007, 06:13 PM
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Thank you Charles, I'm full of ideas,just have to start doing them
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