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Old Sep 05, 2002, 10:05 AM
rebmeM roineS
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Rockingham, Perth - Western Australia
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Aliphatic glue = PVA glue?

G'day

I've seen Aliphatic glue mentioned in various threads over the last year or so, and never realy paid much attention to it. I've never seen a bottle in the stores with 'Aliphatic glue' on the label, so I dunno what it is.

In my dictionary it gives me :
aliphatic (alifatik) adj.
(chem.) Fatty; belonging to the group of organic compounds in which the carbon atoms are linked in open chains as opposed to rings.

Thats nice, but it only party answers my question ... I was hoping to see 'PolyVinylAcetate' or something.
I don't remember my high-school chemistry too well, but I do remember that plastics like the vinyls etc were made from carbon chains.

I've just tried a search here thru previous threads and all I can find is muttering of it, but nothing saying what it is.

So what is it?
I'm not looking for chemical descriptions just examples of the type(s?) of glue it is and what its commercialy called.
Is it PVA woodwork glue (White glue) or does the term cover quite a wide range of glues or is it something else?

Thanks,
Simon
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 10:19 AM
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Aliphatic resin glue is chemically similar to PVA (white glue), but it is chemically modified to make it stronger and more waterproof. It is typically a buttery yellow color and is sold as "carpenter’s wood glue." A major brand name in the US is "TiteBond." It should be available in most major hardware stores, as it is completely ubiquitous here in the States. It takes about 15-30 minutes to dry and it sands reasonably well, although it does sometimes gum-up the sandpaper if you use too much. Like PVA, it's very inexpensive.

Click here to see pictures/prices:
http://www.rocketfun.com/listings/main_adhali.html

Hope this helps,
David
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 10:43 AM
rebmeM roineS
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Rockingham, Perth - Western Australia
Joined Apr 2001
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Excellent, thanks David.

Stronger, more waterproof, and just as cheap, bonus.
Is there a weight penalty here?

Will have a look around for 'buttery yellow' stuff in bottles tomorrow

Thanks again David,
Simon
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 10:51 AM
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The most common brand in the hobby shops will be "Ambroid", if I'm not mistaken. In a metal tube like toothpaste.

Jimmy
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
The most common brand in the hobby shops will be "Ambroid", if I'm not mistaken.
Oh, Ambroid is something quite different. Ambroid is an orange (amber) solvent-based celluloid adhesive which uses MEK and Toluene.

Aliphatic resin is water-based. No fumes, wash up with soap and water.

Happy modelling,
David
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 11:17 AM
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There is also 'Superphatic' glue. Sold at HobbyLobby(?) It is an aliphatic glue that is thin and is supposed to 'wick' like CA does.
A benefit of Titebond II is that it is thermo-active(?) in that heat will let you adjust its position.
And, woodworkers use stearated sandpaper to stop 'gumming' up.
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 11:26 AM
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From http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...types_of_glue/

"White Glues And Yellow Glues

The most common furniture making glues are polyvinyl acetate adhesives, known casually as white and yellow glues. While white glue is a good general adhesive that can be used on most porous materials, yellow glue has been specifically formulated for interior woodworking applications. Yellow glue is usually referred to as aliphatic resin glue. "
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 01:06 PM
rebmeM roineS
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Rockingham, Perth - Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyByMike
There is also 'Superphatic' glue. Sold at HobbyLobby(?) It is an aliphatic glue that is thin and is supposed to 'wick' like CA does.
Awesome! I like the sound of that!

Quote:

A benefit of Titebond II is that it is thermo-active(?) in that heat will let you adjust its position.
And, woodworkers use stearated sandpaper to stop 'gumming' up.
I have heard of this being done with normal PVA white glue too; spread on EPS foam, spread on sheeting balsa, let it set off, align sheet on foam and then iron on.


Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre Audette
From http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...types_of_glue/

"White Glues And Yellow Glues

The most common furniture making glues are polyvinyl acetate adhesives, known casually as white and yellow glues. While white glue is a good general adhesive that can be used on most porous materials, yellow glue has been specifically formulated for interior woodworking applications. Yellow glue is usually referred to as aliphatic resin glue. "
I am a doofus!
Thanks for reminding me that I could have done a search on Google

Thanks everyone, very helpfull.
Simon
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Old Sep 05, 2002, 08:31 PM
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p chem is a drag I mean, who could love entropy discussions.
hoppy
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Old Sep 07, 2002, 10:35 AM
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[QUOTE] - Originally posted by FlyByMike
"... There is also 'Superphatic' glue. Sold at HobbyLobby(?) It is an aliphatic glue that is thin and is supposed to 'wick' like CA does.
A benefit of Titebond II is that it is thermo-active(?) in that heat will let you adjust its position.
And, woodworkers use stearated sandpaper to stop 'gumming' up."

I have used aliphatic for years - used TiteBond to build a harpsichord in 1970.

It works best with close fitted-joints, clamped if possible, and, in common with most glues (Epoxy is an exception), is much stronger after 8 hours or so.

You can get wicking (some decrease in strength and longer open times) by simply adding water. The strength decrease is not likely to be important in modelling applications.

The original TiteBond was thermo-plastic, allowing perfect - looking joints. With judicious sanding, it "flowed" into the crack so you couldn't see it.
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Old Dec 28, 2002, 10:30 PM
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Keeping in mind that Ambroid is "quite different," is it used the same as Titebond? What can be used to thin it, and to clean it up? I'm looking at trying some alternative glues to CA out. I've been told that Aliphatics are light and strong, and I've also heard mention of Ambroid. I plan to use this glue on light, no-cal FF models, but I can't decide which to use, simply because I know very little about Ambroid. Any more info on it? Thanks!

Nick
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Old Dec 29, 2002, 01:31 AM
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Well, Ambriod can be used pretty much like "yellow" carpenter's glue. In my experience, Ambroid is a bit more flexible (rubbery) than carpenter's glue, but it's also a bit trickier to get a good bond.

For Ambroid, it really helps to apply a bit of the glue to each surface as a "primer" and let this dry for a few seconds. Then apply a bit more Ambroid to one part, assemble them and hold the parts in place until set. Pins will normally be required, as Ambroid usually takes 15-30 minutes to fully set up.

I've had good luck with Ambroid on P-Nut scale models, and other indoor stuff... but I think carpenter's glue is stronger and easier to use. In both cases, it's often advisable to make glue "gussets" at high-stress joints.

"Titebond"/carpenter's glue is easier to clean up, as you can use water. For Ambroid you need to use acetone or MEK for cleanup and thinning.

But model building is an adventure... have fun experimenting!

-David
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Old Dec 29, 2002, 04:05 PM
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central AZ
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David,

Thanks! You gave me the information I was looking for! I just might have to give both a try and see which I like best.

Nick
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Old Jan 21, 2003, 07:04 PM
aka: A.Roger Wilfong
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Working with Ambroid and Titebond (or ther alaphatic resing glues) is different. Although some of the techniques from Ambroid can be used.

Ambroid is a solevent based glue. The best joints are made by "double glueing" the joints. Start applying a layer of Ambroid to both sides of the joint. This application of glueears ago soaks into the wood fibers and is allowed to dry. When you make the joint, apply a second layer to one side and stick the two sides together. The solevents will partially disolve the glue that is in the wood and make form a bond with the original glue holding onto the wood and the new glue holding the two glue layers together. Because of the way the molecules bond, itr makes a strong joint. The main problem with Ambroid is that is shrinks and gets brittle with time (years). Models I built 30-40 years ago are falling apart.

Titebond is water based. It really only requires a thin layer. The double glueing trick works with Titebond. For attaching balsa model rocket fins, this technique works great - make the initial application of glue, wipe off all the excess and let it set for about 5 minutes. Then apply a very thin layer to the fin and stick it on the body tube - it will bond almost instantly. Give the joint about 5 minutes and you can filet it. In putting centering rings into a body tube, you have to be very smooth, because the ring will thin out the layer of glue and when you stop, the ring will instantly grab and will NOT move. Titebond also shrinks as it cures but unlike Ambroid, it does not get brittle. On a properly made joint, the shrinkage actually pulls the joint tighter.

Titebond is far stronger than Ambroid. A good Titebond joint is stronger then most woods - orders of magnitude stronger than balsa. Ambroid is about the same strength as balsa - a little stronger.

Ambroid joints can be undone with MEK. After it cures, Titebond is water resistant - I've retrieved a model rocket built with Titebond after six monthys in a swap - the gluse joins were fine - the tubing wasn't bad, considering. Titebond is also thermo plastic and can be heat bonded. You can put a layer on the edge of the ribs, and a layer on the sheeting opposite the ribs. Then just put the sheeting on and heat it with an iron the Titebond will polymerize (sp?) and bond the sheeting to the ribs. You can also loosen a Titebond joint by the application of heat.

- Roger
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Old Jan 21, 2003, 07:19 PM
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Even better info! Thanks! I still need to go pick up some Titebond, but I think from what you've told me, I'll use Titebond unless it's unavailable.

Nick
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