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Old Nov 15, 2006, 02:34 PM
The ceiling is the limit!
micromad's Avatar
South of England
Joined Aug 2004
1,237 Posts
Discussion
Sub Gram Aircraft Discussion Thread

I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread with all details about sub gram aircraft. Here we can discuss lightening techniques on motors such as the Shicoh. We can also talk about airframes, propellors, batteries and actuators. Also this is a place for the experts to give advice such as: Robert Guillot, Martin Newell, Billy Stiltner, Ben Pipenberg, Joe Malinchak, Helmut Schweig etc to help out those in need.

Below are some very useful links for sub gram aircraft:

Working sub gram planes:

Alex Blackledge
Alex Blackledge's (micromad) 0.82 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825340
Video

Joe Malinchak
Joe Malinchak's 2.5 inch butterfly http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...92#post4985892

Robert Guillot
Robert's 0.95gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464760
video

Robert's 0.715 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472960
video

Martin Newell
Martin's Midge http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433403
video and plan

Martin's Midge lightened http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=457474

Martin's Shark http://www.mnewell.rchomepage.com/Pl...k/Shark-1.html

Martin's Lightened Shark- 0.5gram- using a brushless motor http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806518
Video

Lad
Lad's 0.67 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638436
Video

Lad's 0.448 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=852049
Video

Current World Record
Lad's 0.225 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961876
video

Angry Monk
Angry Monk's 0.98 gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672064
video

Angry Monk's 0.84 gram square 2.75" biplane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=687151
video

Angry Monk's 560mg plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766951
Video

Angry Monk's 390mg plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892415
video

Uwe Steller
Uwe Steller's 0.92gram plane http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=973621

Nick Leichty
Nick Leichty's sub gram plane http://www.microflierradio.com/

Japanese Planes
Japenese site tranlated from Japanese to English. There is a 0.88 gram flying wing here
video

Future technology for sub gram planes

brushless motor in mg range thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596219

IR sensor for sub gram planes: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684521

Actuators for sub gram planes: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688237

RF receivers for sub gram models: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691788

Sub gram solar plane: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691420

Radios

Nick Leichty's radio. There is a 0.075gram rx and extremely light actuatorshttp://www.microflierradio.com

Koichi's ir radio http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/b...oko0131%2fshop

Motors

Shicoh motors are sold by Koichi here

Batteries


10mah lipo sold by koichi here

10mah lipo sold by Nick Leichty http://www.microflierradio.com

Power Stream sell a 10mah lipo which weighs 430 mg http://www.powerstream.com/ultra-light.htm

New lighter batteries:

Indoor Flyer 10mah cell http://www.indoorflyer.co.uk/10mah-cell-244-p.asp

Atomic Workshop 8mah cell http://www.atomicworkshop.co.uk/cata...7d5182cf8a3874

Lightened motor threads

Martin's lightened motor http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438521

Robert's lightened motorhttp://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=584505&pp=15

Lad's lightened motor http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476933

Where to shop

Wire and magnets


www.Hmwire.com

http://elektrisola.com/

www.engconcepts.net for magnets

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ht=52+awg+wire for 52 AWG wire

Covering

http://www.osfilm.com/

http://www.homefly.com/

Sams models

http://www.soinc.org/events/wrightst...lasticfilm.htm
There is an entire list of covering films, and how to cover with them.

shops that sell virtually everything (cf, magnets, glue, chargers etc)


indoor flyer does cf, magnets and glue

Koichi's shop (does batteries, ir, shicoh motors etc)

Didel started recently selling similar motors to the shicoh but also sells chargers, magnets etc

micro flier radio (sells radios, batteries plugs and actuators)

bsd (sells cf, chargers, glue etc)

Flitehook (sells good balsa and glue, also some films)

Durobatics (a possible building material)



Let me know if there are any other useful sites to add.


Well I hope this helps get the thread underway and helps people build there own sub gram planes.



Alex
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Old Nov 15, 2006, 02:44 PM
TheyreComingToTakeMeAway!
derk's Avatar
USA, ID, Coeur D'Alene
Joined Dec 2003
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how about links to some materials carbon, mylar, comon light glue, etc. that would be helpful also.

Derrik

cool that will help more people than myself im sure
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Old Nov 15, 2006, 02:55 PM
The ceiling is the limit!
micromad's Avatar
South of England
Joined Aug 2004
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Ok, done.


Thanks

Alex
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Old Nov 15, 2006, 05:04 PM
del
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north of Chicago
Joined Feb 2003
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Lightest mylar I've found so far is OS film. Available from
Tim Goldstein. He also sells nice light expensive balsa.
Links:

http://www.osfilm.com/

http://www.f1d.biz/F1DBizFrameset.htm

--del
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Old Nov 15, 2006, 10:44 PM
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Thousand Oaks, California
Joined May 2004
314 Posts
Hi Alex,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm sure we can all learn from each other through this forum - none of us knows it all, certainly not I.

In the January and February issues of RC Micro World Online Magazine, http://cloud9rc.com, are two articles I wrote about the construction techniques used for the Midge.

--Martin
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 02:56 AM
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Hi Alex,

its a great idea to "compile" the knowledge of the experts. I am obviously one from the theoretical side with some experience in small components.
What might we achieve with all our compact knowledge? A small study performed about 2months ago reveiled a limit mass of about 350g!

Obviously the battery is the limiting factor. So if Jonathan can make a custom version,we should also think about power reduction.
Here my challenge:
- Power package
Battery: 3mAh, 10C, 150mg, supplemented by a voltage regulator: 2V, 50mA, 6mg (existing). The stabilized voltage helps us to save power. Most of the HW can be operated from this regulated source. We can also match wire gauges better!

-Drive system
Motor: brushless, simple 1phase or 2phase motor, either operated directly from the uP or via FETs (SC75 single or SC70 double). Direct drive or with gear. A direct drive needs a larger motor with low efficiency. Using a gear allows an optimum motor (60mg)with high efficiecy (>50%). A gear can be made with m=0.1mm theeth. Source for custom made gear available. Mass 30mg.
Prop for direct drive is only about 15mm. With gear it can be larger.
Complete drive system less than 100mg.

Data handling
- Receiver IR or RF. RF has some more potential since we need only a range of 10m. Without going into detail here I think a suitable version can be made for 10 to 20mg.
- uP: Al data handling is performed in a single chip 3x3x0.8mm, 8I/O pins, 24mg. If we decide to built a 2phase motor we might need more pins.
- SW: The receiver is synchronized with the Tx and switched accordingly to save power. If there is no Tx signal for some time the model goes into sleep mode. EMF measurement of motor. Output for Motor and actuator(s).
Overall mass: 60mg
Model
- Scale down the existing models. Mass 50mg

The total mass is around 370mg. So we should aim at 400mg. WS around 60mm.
What do you think about this challenge?

Helmut
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 02:58 AM
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Joined Jun 2006
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Hi Alex,

its a great idea to "compile" the knowledge of the experts. I am obviously one from the theoretical side with some experience in small components.
What might we achieve with all our compact knowledge? A small study performed about 2months ago reveiled a limit mass of about 350g!

Obviously the battery is the limiting factor. So if Jonathan can make a custom version,we should also think about power reduction.
Here my challenge:
- Power package
Battery: 3mAh, 10C, 150mg, supplemented by a voltage regulator: 2V, 50mA, 6mg (existing). The stabilized voltage helps us to save power. Most of the HW can be operated from this regulated source. We can also match wire gauges better!

-Drive system
Motor: brushless, simple 1phase or 2phase motor, either operated directly from the uP or via FETs (SC75 single or SC70 double). Direct drive or with gear. A direct drive needs a larger motor with low efficiency. Using a gear allows an optimum motor (60mg)with high efficiecy (>50%). A gear can be made with m=0.1mm theeth. Source for custom made gear available. Mass 30mg.
Prop for direct drive is only about 15mm. With gear it can be larger.
Complete drive system less than 100mg.

Data handling
- Receiver IR or RF. RF has some more potential since we need only a range of 10m. Without going into detail here I think a suitable version can be made for 10 to 20mg.
- uP: Al data handling is performed in a single chip 3x3x0.8mm, 8I/O pins, 24mg. If we decide to built a 2phase motor we might need more pins.
- SW: The receiver is synchronized with the Tx and switched accordingly to save power. If there is no Tx signal for some time the model goes into sleep mode. EMF measurement of motor. Output for Motor and actuator(s).
Overall mass: 60mg

Model
- Scale down the existing models. Mass 50mg

The total mass is around 370mg. So we should aim at 400mg. WS around 60mm.
What do you think about this challenge?

Helmut
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 05:34 AM
TheyreComingToTakeMeAway!
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USA, ID, Coeur D'Alene
Joined Dec 2003
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tomorrow i'll be adding my bit of new knowledge in a new thread. im still working on the whole process though, still need to take and edit pics tonight. expect a somewhat long article for you scale guys out there

Derrik
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 12:33 PM
The ceiling is the limit!
micromad's Avatar
South of England
Joined Aug 2004
1,237 Posts
Sounds great Helmut. I've been thinking about using the 3 volt 10mah button cell with a voltage booster. A bit like the guys had to do a few years ago when lithium polymers had not been invented or were not small enough for micro use.


Alex

Edit: Just read the atomic workshops posts on a smaller lipo than the 10mah, sounds like we might be able to get near to that barrier of 0.5 grams.
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 01:23 PM
The ceiling is the limit!
micromad's Avatar
South of England
Joined Aug 2004
1,237 Posts
I have been looking at Nick Leichty's planes on the net and have seen he has built a 0.5 gram 1 channel free flight plane.
Maybe this is what we could start on before we move up to more channels.

On the second photo it is in the top left.


Alex
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 07:29 PM
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Elmwood Park,NJ, United States
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MicroMad, add these pages.

www.engconcepts.com for magnets

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ht=52+awg+wire

For 52 AWG wire

http://www.osfilm.com/

http://www.homefly.com/

Also, look here http://www.soinc.org/events/wrightst...lasticfilm.htm
There is an entire list of covering films, and how to cover with them. apparently, Y2K film can still be bought by Gene Joshu. they list his address, but not the price.

_Jonathan
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Old Nov 16, 2006, 11:08 PM
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Brooklyn NY
Joined Feb 2004
892 Posts
Alex
Good idea for a thread. So many threads going on right now concerning tiny matters...and I thought there were only a handful of people interested in sub gram planes!!

The possibility of a much lighter battery is real motivator.

And Helmut thinks a 400mg plane is possible

Robert
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Old Nov 17, 2006, 01:33 AM
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south shields. England
Joined May 2004
962 Posts
Alex
Thanks for starting the ball rolling! ---- just hope an exclusive sounding thread doesn't put others off reading it however: I've personally found a tremendous amount of really good detailed stuff on sub-micro posts which is applicable to larger model sizes too.

Cheers

Peter
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Old Nov 17, 2006, 11:21 AM
The ceiling is the limit!
micromad's Avatar
South of England
Joined Aug 2004
1,237 Posts
Guys,
I thought it would be a good idea to start this thread as there are a lot of threads dealing on the subject of sub gram planes but I wanted to bring them together so people can admire the modelling skills of your planes.

I have updated the first post with:
Jonathan's sites, thanks .
I have also updated it with Lad's ultra micro motor.

Peter;
I have renamed the thread but if you can think of a better title please tell me as I think this thread is important to the forum.

Robert;
Thanks for the compliments, your the sort of person who could really help us. Do you have any information or pictures of Ben's sub gram creation? I remember reading about the plane in the neat thread.

thanks

Alex
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Old Nov 17, 2006, 11:26 AM
The ceiling is the limit!
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South of England
Joined Aug 2004
1,237 Posts
Martin,
I have been looking at your Shark and the construction. You say that it is built from 0.13mm carbon. Is there a source to buy this or did you slice it? If so could you tell us how


Thanks

Alex
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