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Old Aug 13, 2007, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burkefj
I had my rimfire mounted in a cessna come out, fortunately I had landed and the cowl kept it from coming completely out. I think simply filing two flats on the shaft and using loctite solves the problem, I don't know if I would call this a fatal flaw in the design, I usually do this to motors without a c-clip anyway.

Frank
I should have done that. If the shaft comes loose again, I'll file some flats for the screws, perhaps use some hardened set screws.

My contention is that we, as users, shouldn't have to redesign the whatsit.

CR
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr43
Maiden flight today, flew very nice, handled well on the ground took off in about 10 feet. Controls were very sensitive, I think I'm going to add some
expo.

Jim R
Jim,

Congrats on your maiden....where are your control horns setup at?

Carlos
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burkefj
I had my rimfire mounted in a cessna come out, fortunately I had landed and the cowl kept it from coming completely out. I think simply filing two flats on the shaft and using loctite solves the problem, I don't know if I would call this a fatal flaw in the design, I usually do this to motors without a c-clip anyway.

Frank
Frank, most states follow either the Restatement of Torts (Second) or something similar in products liability cases. If, as to either fabrication, design or warning, a product is either unreasonably dangerous or not reasonably safe, AS MANUFACTURED, NOT AS MODIFIED BY THE CONSUMER, the manufacturer is STRICTLY LIABLE (fault is immaterial) for personal injury or death.

I have defended many products in several jurisdictions over decades, including "real" aircraft, and the terms "fatal flaw" are not terms of art, and no consumer should be "charged" with knowing how or what to do to avoid a latent condition such as this! These are, of course, my simple opinions.

Of course, fortunately for me, my damages were "economic," only (another doctrine altogether-"economic loss doctrine"), but someone, somewhere, lacking your superior knowledge, may ....
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 07:17 PM
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Sorry but, I am not following the issue "Problem" about the Output Shaft coming out and motor disassembling?

If you mount the motor forward with output shaft sticking outward "forward" manner the motor assembly is in compression and it will NOT disassemble in mid-air.

I am in no way saying to do this but, because of this observation, I left out the metal Keeper Ring as I just did not see any need for it.....since the motor is mounted behind the firewall and it is in compression.

Should this motor come with a special Rear mounting Propeller Adapter (it does not) like the larger diameter size RIMFIRE outrunners then, I would certainly keep the Metal Keeper Ring on the Output shaft as now the motor is is no longer in a "compression" mode when it's running and rather the forces are trying to separate the rotating can from the frontal assembly.

So, if anyone has a picture or diagram of this delma, I would greatly appreciate so, I can better understand.....
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 08:00 PM
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Dave, your legal analysis may be perfectly valid, but I would say that this "latent condition" exists with most if not all of the brushless motors, we use, whether retained by an E-clip and groove in the output shaft or held with screws, flats and loctited, there is the potential that any of these
can let go, I've had e-flite 250 motors come loose from their mountings even with the screw loctited and flail around with the prop attached. Word to the wise, don't rely on product liability to save your eyesight, just like using a firearm, reloading ammunition, using power tools, or anything rotating at high rpm, wear safety glasses and stand behind the item when operating it, not in front of it. Likewise, wear a glove or use a chicken stick to start your gas engines and don't reach around to adjust the needle valve, use an extension if possible. My motor had the prop saver attached and once it was free of the bell it lost energy pretty quickly, I guess you must have been running yours without a prop on it for just the shaft to come out.

Frank


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Matison
Frank, most states follow either the Restatement of Torts (Second) or something similar in products liability cases. If, as to either fabrication, design or warning, a product is either unreasonably dangerous or not reasonably safe, AS MANUFACTURED, NOT AS MODIFIED BY THE CONSUMER, the manufacturer is STRICTLY LIABLE (fault is immaterial) for personal injury or death.

I have defended many products in several jurisdictions over decades, including "real" aircraft, and the terms "fatal flaw" are not terms of art, and no consumer should be "charged" with knowing how or what to do to avoid a latent condition such as this! These are, of course, my simple opinions.

Of course, fortunately for me, my damages were "economic," only (another doctrine altogether-"economic loss doctrine"), but someone, somewhere, lacking your superior knowledge, may ....
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 08:03 PM
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Okay, lets fly Inrunners with Gearboxes.....at least you can hear her coming!
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burkefj
Dave, your legal analysis may be perfectly valid, but I would say that this "latent condition" exists with most if not all of the brushless motors, we use, whether retained by an E-clip and groove in the output shaft or held with screws, flats and loctited, there is the potential that any of these
can let go, I've had e-flite 250 motors come loose from their mountings even with the screw loctited and flail around with the prop attached. Word to the wise, don't rely on product liability to save your eyesight, just like using a firearm, reloading ammunition, using power tools, or anything rotating at high rpm, wear safety glasses and stand behind the item when operating it, not in front of it. Likewise, wear a glove or use a chicken stick to start your gas engines and don't reach around to adjust the needle valve, use an extension if possible. My motor had the prop saver attached and once it was free of the bell it lost energy pretty quickly, I guess you must have been running yours without a prop on it for just the shaft to come out.

Frank
Industry custom, if not reasonable, does not determine whether a design, etc. is unreasonably dangerous or not reasonably safe.

MY PROP WAS IN PLACE AT ALL TIMES AND THAT, FRANK, IS THE GREATEST SOURCE OF DANGER!

It is the manufacturer's duty to make the products safe, not yours and not mine: don't go squealing to a lawyer if you or someone you love gets hurt.

So, what do you do about other product recalls, like automobiles? Chalk it up to "I should have known." or "that's the way it is in the industry."

Wish I'd had you on my juries in defending many products!

By the way, what the Hell is a "chicken stick?"

Remember, some of us were out working in courtrooms and offices for years and have to learn these things!

Oh, and as to the "comparative fault" issue (you should stand behind...etc., I WAS BEHIND THE DAMN THING WHEN IT LET GO AND DO YOU SERIOUSLY CONTEND THAT ANYONE NOT WEARING SAFETY GLASSES AROUND ONE OF THESE LITTLE THINGS SHOULD BE FOUND CONTRIBUTORILY NEGLIGENT IF INJURED? I assure you that most defense lawyers don't have the guts or stupidity to blame a consumer under these circumstances because it will only (1) inflame the jury, and (2) increase the verdict.

Sorry, Frank, but I must disagree with all your premises.

Oh, and one last comment, I hope: the Sophistry of your argument escaped me until reflection. IT IS PUBLIC POLICY IN EVERY STATE IN THE U.S. that a consumer DOES have the right to expect and rely upon manufacturers and distributors to make and sell "reasonably safe products." The "law" and public policy allocate the burden of testing and discovery on "them," where it rightly belongs, not me and not you. Analogies to inherently dangerous products such as guns are simply inapposite unless THE PERIL OR HAZARD IS TRULY OPEN AND OBVIOUS TO A PERSON OF ORDINARY COMPETENCE OR KNOWLEDGE (a reasonable consumer standard).

G, sus, everybody is a damned lawyer or has a least "one opinion," right?
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Matison
By the way, what the Hell is a "chicken stick?"
Here you go.....
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 08:54 PM
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Well, nice photo, but the question stands: what the Hell (functionally) is a chicken stick?
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:26 PM
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Chicken Stick - A hand-held stick used to "flip start" a model airplane engine.

When you are too scared or smart, depending on how you look at it, to use your hand.
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:34 PM
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Thanks Guapo for lightening the mood. Dave assumed I was putting the blame on him for the prop coming out, when in fact I was trying to point out that these models have a lot of potential dangers in them, and to not take the appropriate safety precautions puts you at greater risk of injury.

I would say it is in all of our best interests to look over all components that go into a model and how they are constructed and check them from time to time to avoid a potential injury to someone on the ground if a failure were to occur. In my experience it is a rare model model that doesn't have three or four glaring places where the design was just flaky, the parts were marginal, or just wouldn't work as intended. Can you catch everything, no, but please be sure to look things over, do pre-flights, range checks, etc.

A chicken stick usually a rubber stick that is used to hand start a gas motor in the absence of an electric starter, and no-they normally don't look like what quapoman2000 posted

Frank


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Originally Posted by guapoman2000
Here you go.....
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by burkefj
Thanks Guapo for lightening the mood. Dave assumed I was putting the blame on him for the prop coming out, when in fact I was trying to point out that these models have a lot of potential dangers in them, and to not take the appropriate safety precautions puts you at greater risk of injury.

I would say it is in all of our best interests to look over all components that go into a model and how they are constructed and check them from time to time to avoid a potential injury to someone on the ground if a failure were to occur. In my experience it is a rare model model that doesn't have three or four glaring places where the design was just flaky, the parts were marginal, or just wouldn't work as intended. Can you catch everything, no, but please be sure to look things over, do pre-flights, range checks, etc.

A chicken stick usually a rubber stick that is used to hand start a gas motor in the absence of an electric starter, and no-they normally don't look like what quapoman2000 posted

Frank

Well, someone wiser than me once said, "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken S..T!"

So, Frank, just what are "appropriate cautions?" (I followed the warnings on the package insert of the motor to the letter! I suggest to you that as a matter of law those ARE the "appropriate" warnings, albeit inadequate.)Perhaps you can enlighten juries in all 50 states someday.

I'm just trying to point out to you that in this day and age you are just a bit right of center.

Regards, Dave
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:44 PM
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Chicken Stick found in Field Box

Here's the typical manual Engine Starter Stick (a.k.a., "Chicken Stick") for those that like to keep their fingers when starting an Internal Combustion Engine with special high Nitro Fuel.

Note the arrow in the picture!
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:51 PM
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As I said, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken S..T!
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Old Aug 13, 2007, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burkefj
Thanks Guapo for lightening the mood.

I would say it is in all of our best interests to look over all components that go into a model and how they are constructed and check them from time to time to avoid a potential injury to someone on the ground if a failure were to occur. In my experience it is a rare model model that doesn't have three or four glaring places where the design was just flaky, the parts were marginal, or just wouldn't work as intended. Can you catch everything, no, but please be sure to look things over, do pre-flights, range checks, etc.

Frank
Yes, I agree....I have learned by many that the control horns are inserted into pretty thin and weak balsa and I have seen one RC Flyer crash his new Great Planes S.E.5a into the ground because one of those control horns came off one of his top wing ailerons....nothing he could do except watch it come down Fortunately he was flying at an RC Club pretty early in the morning the it came down right on the field.

Here's what I did for my S.E.5a and of course I did the same for the Fokker DVII.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=167
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