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Old Aug 10, 2002, 12:14 AM
17 years on RCG!
United States, NV, Las Vegas
Joined Dec 1996
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Joining the big boys - Buying a Logo 20 - Need help with electronics choices!

Hey guys!

A fellow EZoner put his Logo 20 up for sale recently and it prompted my purchase! Since my ESC is still in the mail to Schulze for my Logo 10, I need a Logo something or other to fly I guess

At any rate, I just needed some help with choices on electronics. The heli already includes motor/ESC (See below, need some help there too!), batteries, blades, etc.

I just bought myself a new 8103 to replace my older non-digital version. I bought the PCM set up which includes the new JR 811 sport digital servos. I'll be using 120 degree CCPM and from past experience, these servos should do the job great, but I just wanted to be sure. Here are the servo specs (Not bad for $48 and JR quality!):

Weight: 1.44 oz
Size: 0.75"x1.49"x1.52"
Torque: 54 oz in w/4.8V pack
Sweep Speed: .18 sec./60-degrees
Dead Band: Less than .01 ms
Motor Type: Cored
Gear Type: Plastic
Ball Bearing: Single

I can eek almost 69 ounces of torque out of them using a 5 cell/6v receiver pack, but I prefer to stay with 4 cell/4.8v. I will be flying this heli in 3D so the servos definitely have to be up to par!

What size receiver pack are most running? I'll be using my Schulze charger so I can top of Rx packs between flights, so I guess I wont need anything excessively heavy. How about a 4 cell pack of Sanyo CP1300s? They would weigh around 5 ounces and easily provide power for a few flights per charge and easily handle FAST field charging.

My 8103 set up includes a JR 649 S-PCM receiver. Im aware the Logo 20 is known to really cause havok with receivers due to the LARGE electric motor and all the wiring so only the best PCM receivers are recomended. This is one of the higher end JR receivers, but would the 955S be the better bet? Had I thought ahead, I could have paid $30 more and gotten the 955 instead of the 649 with the radio - doh! Will the 649 cut it without glitching?

How many ferrite rings do I need? Where do I put them?

I know these days the best gyro/servo combo around seems to be the Futaba GY401/9253. Call me silly, but I really like to use JR products. I already have a number of the 460T gyros on hand and some of the new JR digital 810G tail servos (.095 transit!) - do you guys think this gyro/servo combo can come close to the 401/9253? Anyone flown it? My Logo 10 has the 460T and 810G in it, but again, that darn ESC is stuck in customs so I dont know how good it is! This heli Im getting actually already has the 401 in place - should I just buy a 9253 servo to accompany it (Around $85 some places) or try the JR gyro/servo combo?

Lastly, the heli includes the Plettenberg 300/25/A3 heli motor and Schulze 35Ho ESC. From all my research this is THE power combo to run! Even better than the Tango, though I will try the new Hacker motor GWRIGHT is testing as soon as I can get one. At any rate, the heli includes a 9 tooth pinion and a 20 cells (2 10 cell) matched 2400 pack. Is this enough power for basic 3D? Should I go to 24 cells for even more agressive flying? I have 4, 12 cell Panasonic 3000 Stock Metal hydride HV packs for my Logo 10 so going to 24 cells is no problem. What is duration like on 2400s? How about 3000s? I also have 2 12 cell CP1700 packs so I can try 24 of those. What type of flight times on 1700s? I know its got to be AWESOME power wise with the CP1700s due to the lost weight!

Sorry for all the questions. Even if you only have an answer to just one of them please let me know. Ive seen the 20s fly (Mark Mercer, Allan Szabo) can only only say - WOW. Not I finally get to own one!

Thanks so much guys!

Jason
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 12:23 AM
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United States, FL, West Palm Beach
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Hello

Have you considered the UBEC? It works great and doesnt even get hot not to mention it weighs almost nothing. It'g good to 29 cells(the standard one) and only cost 30 buck(about the cost of a Rx pack). Oh, Gary Wright uses them in his Logos

You can't go wrong with Futaba gyros(just so you know I am mainly a JR guy, I have a 10Sx and JR PCM Rx's); I love my 401/9153.

Carlo
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 12:26 AM
17 years on RCG!
United States, NV, Las Vegas
Joined Dec 1996
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Doh! Forgot about UBEC! I just put one a buddy's Logo 10 today and it works PERFECT! I have one for my Logo 10, but spaced that I could use it in the Logo 20 too - duh Guess I know what receiver pack (Or lack thereof) I'll be using!

Thanks Carlo

And thats one vote to buy a 9253 for the included 401...

Jason
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 03:17 AM
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With the solid 5v and 3amps from the UBEC you should get alittle over the 54oz from them. And it should not sag under load like batteries do.

If you don't go with the UBEC, check out the 1700 4/5 A nimh cells.
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 04:59 AM
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Now then Jason lad,
Saw you at the 3D Masters, shame about those final set manouvres as many of us thought you should have won.
This opinion is probably worth diddly but I've replaced the 9253/401 combo in My Rap91 with 460/810g and now with 6000 (NOT I hasten to add an intellectual decision, more to do with Futaba spare aparts problems and then misguided senile enthusiasm )
FWIW I'd definitely give the 460 810 combo a punt.
And if it's no good I live too far away for you to come and bash me up
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 06:29 AM
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Dundas, ON Canada
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I use 4 X CP1300s and of course they work fine. I put them right up front so they also help balance the heli when I'm only using 20 cells. I added a good-quality coax charging jack (like on a TX) to the bottom of the Logo frame for easy-access charging convenience.

The BEC is a neat idea. Anyone know what happens to the output of the BEC if the current is briefly exceeded? That would be my main concern...

I also used a heavy-duty switch harness to ensure the radio system can draw as much current as it wants.

I only use one ferrite ring near the receiver on the throttle lead. I also use the Mikado-recommended antenna setup and a Futaba PCM receiver. Zero glitches so far. I'd like to use a base-loaded antenna but I haven't done so yet because of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" rule.

I use servo arms that are about 19mm long on S9202s. This speeds up the response from these good-but-not-fast servos. It also provides lots of throw for flips etc.

I'm not familiar with JR equipment but I would put lots of emphasis on servo reliability when selecting servos! Pick ones that are known to be reliable in helis!!

The GY401/9253 works so well it is almost a no brainer. I'd get the 9253 servo if I were you. Nothing I'm aware of at this price level works as well. Make sure the tail pitch mechanism works very smooth and free. With this combo, 5 cells is NOT an option, however.

You're gonna love this heli.

Rob
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 07:46 AM
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If you ever use Futaba servos/gyros be aware that unless it is one of the new "digital servos" the specs shown on the box for torque/speed are at 6.0v not 4.8v. You will see no increase in torque/speed at 6.0v you actually get less at 4.8v.

Also the Futaba SMM series gyros GY240, Gy401, GY601 are all rated for use at NO MORE THAN 5.0V . That's right you WILL BURN THEM OUT if you use them on a 5 cell RX pack.

This information comes directly from Anne Marie Cross of Great Planes the US Futaba distributor.

Brad
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 08:18 AM
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"Now then Jason lad, Saw you at the 3D Masters, shame about those final set manouvres as many of us thought you should have won."

Hehe, I THINK that would be another Jason, or am making an as of myself?

Glen
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 02:09 PM
ehx
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Northern Minnesota
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Re: Joining the big boys - Buying a Logo 20 - Need help with electronics choices!

Quote:
Originally posted by LVRCFlyer

My 8103 set up includes a JR 649 S-PCM receiver. Im aware the Logo 20 is known to really cause havok with receivers due to the LARGE electric motor and all the wiring so only the best PCM receivers are recomended. This is one of the higher end JR receivers, but would the 955S be the better bet? Had I thought ahead, I could have paid $30 more and gotten the 955 instead of the 649 with the radio - doh! Will the 649 cut it without glitching?

How many ferrite rings do I need? Where do I put them?
I was really worried about glitching too when I got my "20". So much so that I replaced the JR460T gyro with the 410T while I was building it. The idea being that one wire running the length of the heli was better than two. Ironically this turned out to create the only electrical problems I've had. It seems the dip switches on the 410T weren't making perfect contact so occasionally the tail would twitch. To make a long story short it took a while to track down as it was an intermittent problem. During (and after) this process I tried both the PCM 649 and the FM 549 receivers and both worked fine without any glitching. Oh, and just to add, I always use base-loaded antennas. Why have an extra three feet of wire hanging around?

Ferrite rings are really more important for the higher frequency motors like the Tango, but you still should put one on the controller lead where it goes into the receiver.

As for the tail setup the JR410T works alright. I set mine up by studying pictures on the net and the manual and have the servo arm centered above the servo. There is limited arm length this way. You may want to reverse this (with the servo arm centered down) so you can use a longer arm. Gary Wright has mentioned this.
Quote:
Lastly, the heli includes the Plettenberg 300/25/A3 heli motor and Schulze 35Ho ESC. From all my research this is THE power combo to run! Even better than the Tango, though I will try the new Hacker motor GWRIGHT is testing as soon as I can get one. At any rate, the heli includes a 9 tooth pinion and a 20 cells (2 10 cell) matched 2400 pack. Is this enough power for basic 3D? Should I go to 24 cells for even more agressive flying?
I have both the Tango 45-08 and the Pletti 300/25/A3 and have been testing them with 20 and 24 cells and 8, 9, and 10 tooth pinions. I'm not done yet, but the Pletti on 24 cells and an 8T or 9T pinion seems to be the winner as far as power goes. Be aware that it runs hot though. With 20 cells either motor can do basic 3D. The motors are pretty close using 20 cells (my preference is for the Tango). I just see a bigger performance boost in the Pletti when going to 24 cells than in the Tango when going to 24.

As usual, the best setup is the one that is just about to be released. I want to get an "improved" Hacker B50-14XL as soon as they are out also.
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 04:33 PM
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Jason, I've had great luck with a JR 649 S-PCM receiver. Back when I was getting glitching/failsafe hits with my first LOGO 20, it handled it very well. Once I added a single ferrite ring (the Kontronik one recommended by Mikado) on the ESC's receiver lead, near the receiver and changed to the GY401 gyro, the next LOGO 20 has been glitch free for hundreds of flights.

Cheers!

Glen
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Old Aug 10, 2002, 05:07 PM
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Dundas, ON Canada
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Re: Re: Joining the big boys - Buying a Logo 20 - Need help with electronics choices!

Quote:
Originally posted by ehx
...I have both the Tango 45-08 and the Pletti 300/25/A3 and have been testing them with 20 and 24 cells and 8, 9, and 10 tooth pinions. I'm not done yet, but the Pletti on 24 cells and an 8T or 9T pinion seems to be the winner as far as power goes. Be aware that it runs hot though. With 20 cells either motor can do basic 3D. The motors are pretty close using 20 cells (my preference is for the Tango). I just see a bigger performance boost in the Pletti when going to 24 cells than in the Tango when going to 24...
Ehx:
Hmmm. The smaller change in performance going from 20-24 cells with the Tango/Beat combo reminds me of an experience I had recently. When you set up the Beat controller, did you use 20 or 24 cells? For a fair comparison perhaps you need to set up the Beat each time you change cell count.

Here's why I think this might be the case.

I set mine up one time using only 10 cells (I was lazy and just grabbed a single pack) and I couldn't get full RPM out of the motor when I went to the field with 20. In fact, the RPM was WAY down (I could barely get the heli to lift off) You may be experiencing the same thing to a lesser extent. I think it has something to do with the way the Kontronik controllers work.

My experience is one scenario that might explain this. It could also explain the situation if you set the Beat controller with 24 cells. The controller may not slow the motor down as much with fewer cells.

To summarize, I see three possibilities:

1. You set up the controller with 20 cells. You might get more RPM out of the Tango with 24 cells if you set it up using 24.

2. You set up the controller with 24 cells. The Tango is proportionately hotter with 20 cells because the governor isn't slowing the motor down as much with reduced voltage.

3. Lastly, you re-initiallized the Beat controller when you changed the number of cells and I'm off base.

So I'm very curious to know if it is one of the above.

Rob
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Old Aug 11, 2002, 02:12 PM
ehx
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Quote:
Originally posted by rscamp
Ehx:
For a fair comparison perhaps you need to set up the Beat each time you change cell count.

To summarize, I see three possibilities:

1. You set up the controller with 20 cells. You might get more RPM out of the Tango with 24 cells if you set it up using 24.

2. You set up the controller with 24 cells. The Tango is proportionately hotter with 20 cells because the governor isn't slowing the motor down as much with reduced voltage.

3. Lastly, you re-initiallized the Beat controller when you changed the number of cells and I'm off base.

So I'm very curious to know if it is one of the above.

Rob
It's #3. I read the manual. Reinitialize with a cell count change or pinion change. I'm not done yet with all the testing though. Right now I'm flying the Tango with 24 cells and a 9T pinion which is what you are flying (I think). It might do a little better with an 8T which I'll be trying shortly. Again we aren't talking HUGE differences here and for a variety of reasons I prefer the Tango, but the Pletti does seem to be more powerful.
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Old Aug 11, 2002, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ehx

It's #3. I read the manual. Reinitialize with a cell count change or pinion change. I'm not done yet with all the testing though. Right now I'm flying the Tango with 24 cells and a 9T pinion which is what you are flying (I think). It might do a little better with an 8T which I'll be trying shortly. Again we aren't talking HUGE differences here and for a variety of reasons I prefer the Tango, but the Pletti does seem to be more powerful.
#3 eh? Its in the instructions? I'll have to read them.

Yes - We have the same Tango setup. I'm using 20 and 24 cells and a 9T pinion. 8T would be too slow for me if I'm using 20 cells. Flight time might be good though.

I haven't tried the Pletti so I can't compare. I know it is a very good motor. I do like that the Tango runs cool and has a very smooth startup with the Beat controller. Steve Neu commented the unusual construction of the Tango makes it difficult to know how hot it is getting inside. This is quite true, but it also isn't storing a lot of heat energy because it doesn't take long to cool down either. I suppose the windings could be getting quite warm in flight, but they'll cool quite quickly when power is turned off given the lack of heat-storing metal nearby.

Rob
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