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Old Aug 17, 2006, 01:31 PM
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Cambridge, MA
Joined Aug 2006
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YANESGT (Yet Another Northeast Sailplane Gripe Thread)

As I am new to flying sailplanes, I ask for recommendations from local club - someone suggests Defiant from NES.

I call (early June) - out of stock I'm told, try in a couple of weeks.

Three weeks later - still out of stock, try again in a couple of weeks.

Mid July - Man (Sal?) answers. States definitively that Defiant has arrived, needs to be kitted and will ship in "a week and a half." Place order for Defiant and hi-start. Am told there will be an extra charge for hi-start shipping and ask that it be sent immediately so that I can use it with another glider. E-mail address is taken so that shipping confirmation may be sent.

July 20th CC charged for Defiant + hi-start

Early August - no shipping confirmations. I call to enquire - man (Sal?) transfers me to woman (Carolyn) who apologizes for delay and promises that Defiant will ship "by the end of the week." Also promises to send hi-start in advance of sailplane as originally agreed.

One week later (Tuesday) - no shipping confirmations. Carolyn apologizes for delay, acknowleges error on hi-start and promises to send immediately. She says that Defiant is being kitted and, although she and Sal are going on vacation, Nick will ship the kits "early next week."

Two days later, hi-start arrives.

8/16, a week later - two phone calls are required to reach Nick. Nick says that Defiants arrived in bulk "late last week" were not kitted and were a much lower priority for him than "day to day" stuff. Thinks the Defiant won't ship until Sal and Carolyn are back next week.

So, on three occasions NES misrepresented the stock status of the Defiant, took my money, and repeatedly failed to deliver as promised. Today, assuming that Nick is being truthful (and accurate), the "in-stock" item that I ordered will not ship for more than a month after it was ordered - assuming that I get it at all.

This is particularly maddening because of the affect of everyone that I talk to at NES. The conversations are not hostile by any means - everyone seems quite nice - but they seem to be trapped in a morass of deceit and inertia. Carefully shaded language deliberately disguises stocking status. Promises for shipping are volunteered and then cavalierly (or perhaps willfully?) disregarded. Apologies are meaningless and insincere. There is no offer of remedy, no sense of obligation to the person whose money they have expropriated without compensation.

I recognize that I bear some of the blame. I had read about NES and placed my order hoping that I would dodge the bullet that is so adequately documented in this forum. I didn't and now summer is essentially gone with little hope that I will be flying a Defiant any time soon.

Anyone interested in participating in a letter-writing campaign to the Vermont Office of Consumer Protection?
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Last edited by hokenpoke; Aug 17, 2006 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Adjective used where adverb required
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 02:13 PM
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USA, TX, Live Oak
Joined Oct 2002
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I'm surprised that a "sailplane club" would recommend NES. The first thing my club tells new members is to never, ever order anything from them. Numerous horror stories are always offered to back up the warning. Spread the word, brother.
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 08:54 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Aug 2003
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Yep, no-one I've ever met in the hobby who has dealt with them has anything nice to say about Nesail, including me. I had your experience, but with a multitude of rude, arrogant and deceitful email responses to my email inquiries about where my order was. So quick to take your money, so unconcerned thereafter….
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Old Aug 20, 2006, 06:23 PM
tic
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New Cumberland, PA. US
Joined Dec 2000
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I'm still waiting for a hat... When I ordered some small stuff the transaction was smooth. Shipping was fast and order was filled accurately.. That's just one transaction and it wasn't for a plane or big ticket item however I like to share the experience.. I don't think NES could stay in business if EVERYONE that placed an order had problems.
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Old Aug 20, 2006, 08:42 PM
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Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennsylvania, United States
Joined Nov 2000
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Komet
I'd like to introduce myself. I'm a very satisfied NES customer. Never had a problem. Got excellent advice which saved me money. Every order was shipped in good time (but I admit to being very lemient on delivery time).

I've been in this hobby for over 40 years so I have just a bit of experience with vendors. As tic has stated--NSP could not have stayed in business for as long as they have if they were as bad as they are portrayed on this forum. What this amounts to is the squeeky wheel concept. You seldom hear about the satisfied customers. They have little to complain about. What you read here may account for perhaps less than 1% of NSP's customer base.

BM
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Old Aug 20, 2006, 10:18 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
Komet
I'd like to introduce myself. I'm a very satisfied NES customer. Never had a problem. Got excellent advice which saved me money. Every order was shipped in good time (but I admit to being very lemient on delivery time).

I've been in this hobby for over 40 years so I have just a bit of experience with vendors. As tic has stated--NSP could not have stayed in business for as long as they have if they were as bad as they are portrayed on this forum. What this amounts to is the squeeky wheel concept. You seldom hear about the satisfied customers. They have little to complain about. What you read here may account for perhaps less than 1% of NSP's customer base.

BM
Well good for you BillM, I'm glad your purchases have gone well. Of course it changes nothing because I haven't met you. Perhaps you are actually Sal in another shill account. Remember when he got banned from RCGroups for doing that? Yeah, a real stand up bloke.

In any case, why are you addressing me? Did you think that insulting me by calling me a squeaky wheel would help convince me of something? Do you think the other posters on this thread are squeaky wheels too? My experience happened, I was lied to, insulted and cheated out of goods I paid for by this company and in particular, the company’s principal. I would spare others the ordeal, so I posted. And while you obviously think that informing me you have 40 years in the hobby and just a little experience in dealing with vendors is relevant, I fail to see it. I know how to buy things, and how to treat others.

And by the way, unless you work there I doubt very much that you know what percentage of nesail’s customers are unhappy with their service.
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 06:47 AM
Uniblab
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Cherry Hill, NJ
Joined Oct 2004
877 Posts
Wow Komet - that seemed uncalled for. Who appointed you the moderator of this thread (and it's not even your thread!)? This is a discussion forum - you might not agree with everyone's viewpoint but that doesn't mean that it's fair to flame anyone that doesn't share your opinion. I'm sensing a Bush Republican Down Under!
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 07:47 AM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Aug 2003
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And who appointed you moderator of anything yourself? He addressed me, or didn't you notice? I replied to that post in a manner I though appropriate. I really couldn't care if you thought it was uncalled for or not. As for your assertion that I 'flamed' him, please. If Billm has a problem with my response I think he can speak for himself.

But back to the thread topic, which is about yet another person's unhappy experience in dealing with Nesail. Why don't you post something about that, share your experience or offer the thread starter some useful advice.

And lastly, Hokenpoke, you don't bear any blame at all for your what happened. You gave a vendor a chance and they failed you misserably. Some people have had good experiences with nesail and and became advocates of the company. I know what that's like because I'll go out of my way to trumpet vendors that have treated me well. The flipside is what you (and I) experienced. You have every right to feel the way you do. It's the same feeling that encourages me to warn others about this company. Model airplanes are for fun, they also cost a LOT of money and it sucks when companies that you spend your money with treat you like that.
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 08:34 AM
tic
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New Cumberland, PA. US
Joined Dec 2000
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At least we have this forum to share our experiences with vendors, good OR bad. People can make decisions armed with other peoples knowledge of dealing with the vendor. I personally make a point of patting any vendor on the back that does a good job. I also will post bad experiences too. Just read the hacker forum if you want some juicy stuff.
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 03:03 PM
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Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennsylvania, United States
Joined Nov 2000
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Komet
My comments to you were in answer to your statement that you never met a satisfied NSP costomer--and that is all that was directed to you personally.

The remainder of my post was meant to point out the fact that only a very few of NSP's customers are the nay sayers on this forum. NSP's customer base far exceeds the number of those who have had problems or complaints.

And I agree that at times Sal can perhaps be "difficult" but in many cases those same people may also have what can be called an abrasive attitude. In other words there are two sides to every story and usually all we see here is one of those sides.

The advantage this hobby offers is the ability to choose where you spend your money. You have a choice as do I. But neither of us has a right to besmerch a vendors reputation based on our perceptions as we all have our own ideas of good and bad.

BM
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 04:59 PM
Uniblab
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Cherry Hill, NJ
Joined Oct 2004
877 Posts
Komet,

Since you asked, I have dealt with NSP on several orders that add up to approximately $500. All orders were received within approx. 2 weeks which I admit isn't the speediest turnaround time, but not so long as to make me want to complain. On one order they sent me the wrong item, but after a quick phone call they sent out the correct item. Overall - I am a satisfied NSP customer (but I DO wish their web site would show In Stock status).

Now, regarding my reasons for my original post, I felt that you agressively attacked someone that was just trying to post a constructive counterpoint. BillM's calm, non-accusitive response to your "flame" confirms to me that he was just trying to be helpful. You, on the other hand, appear to have an axe to grind. Since this is an open forum, I have the right to comment on what I consider to be uncivil behaviour.

Hokenpoke,

It may be too late to cancel your NSP order, but have you looked at any Multiplex models? I think that they may have an all-foam glider (EZ Glider?). Good luck.

Roger
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 01:26 AM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
Komet
My comments to you were in answer to your statement that you never met a satisfied NSP costomer--and that is all that was directed to you personally.
Ok, fair enough BillM. I accept that I took this a bit personally and got a bit hot under the collar at a perceived slight - long day and all that. I acknowledge your point and I hope I haven’t offended you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
The remainder of my post was meant to point out the fact that only a very few of NSP's customers are the nay sayers on this forum. NSP's customer base far exceeds the number of those who have had problems or complaints.

And I agree that at times Sal can perhaps be "difficult" but in many cases those same people may also have what can be called an abrasive attitude. In other words there are two sides to every story and usually all we see here is one of those sides.

The advantage this hobby offers is the ability to choose where you spend your money. You have a choice as do I. But neither of us has a right to besmerch a vendors reputation based on our perceptions as we all have our own ideas of good and bad.

BM
But, I have to disagree here. This is a vendor’s forum; it exists so that people can share their experiences, good and bad, in dealing with a vendor. We have both done that. I don’t think what I posted about Nesail, or what any of the other negative posters wrote constitutes besmirching. Because it is based on our actual experience. You say you had a positive experience(s) with Nesail, and I take you at your word. But I had quite the opposite. It wasn’t someone being difficult or abbrasive with me, which I can live with, it was outright lies, threats about me never getting my goods at all, failure to provide me with the correct goods, a threat that ‘he would never do business with anyone in Australia because of this and it would be (my) fault’!, insults tinged with plenty of smug arrogance, and a complete unwillingness to address any of the issues I raised in my emails about my order. I hope you will do me the courtesy of taking me at my word that the above is true.

Looking back, it was a sickening experience. My money was tied up for months. Sure, I should have cancelled and gone elsewhere, but at the time I still had faith that some part of the company was trying to sort it out and one of those notifications that ‘goods were sent' was true. It took months to finally ‘resolve’, meaning I eventually got what he decided to send, although there were issues there, wrong wind motor (useless) and parts missing etc. It cost me a lot of extra money in making up the parts that I knew I would never get.

You like Nesail. But ask yourself, how would you feel if you were treated like that? Personally, I have enough faith in my perception of what constitutes good and bad treatment to judge it as bad treatment.
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 06:36 AM
My other TX is a P4000.
Joedy's Avatar
USA, VA, Raphine
Joined Sep 2002
2,254 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hokenpoke
....
I recognize that I bear some of the blame. I had read about NES and placed my order hoping that I would dodge the bullet that is so adequately documented in this forum. I didn't and now summer is essentially gone with little hope that I will be flying a Defiant any time soon.

Anyone interested in participating in a letter-writing campaign to the Vermont Office of Consumer Protection?

Rest assured that once this story gets on the NSP Radar, that you will be offered some type of compensation to appeal to your sense of devotion and towards, "giving them another chance."

This is a common pattern that has appeared on many occasions on this forum. There are all kinds of relationships where a deed of ill will is done and an attempt to eradicate it is offered. Were it an exception to the rule, perhaps a good faith attempt would be sufficient, but when there is a pattern, you can only ask yourself if all of your troubles were worth the grief.

As you mentioned, there is ample evidence of the many failings of NSP on this forum. Sure, there are a handfull of devoted customers who continue to purchase from them without problems, but by and large, the negative posts vastly outnumber the positive posts. Presuming that the happy customers are just not posting is an intentional blissful ignorance that undermines the premise that only squeaky wheels garner any attention. A good business practice doesn't create squeaky wheels, but when they do happen, every effort is made to contain and solve the problem before they become vocal.

Consider for example, the number of bad posts that you see about Hobby Lobby on this forum. In all of the years that I've been a member here, I can only recall a handfull of negative posts about them. In fact, it is a rare event to even see something negative about Hobby Lobby. I cannot recall a single instance where a problem was not resolved promptly and to the satisfaction of the poster. By and large, the very vast majority of Hobby Lobby miscues and mistakes are addressed and resolved promptly before they become reasons for public discourse.

If I were you, I would not waste my time writing a letter to the Vermont Office of Consumer Protection. Frankly, it's not going to do any good; the agency cannot prevent a vendor from lying about the availability of a product. While that might raise ethical and moral issues, this act is not going to raise any issues concerning illegality or actions pertaining thereof.


You want an answer to your delimma?

It's easy.

Patronize businesses that rightfully earn your respect and devotion with excellent products and customer service that compliments them.

If you are unsure of which vendors have earned the trust, admiration, respect and appreciation of their customers, just post a new thread seeking advice and recommendation from fellow modelers.

-joedy



ps. I now have you blocked on my PM list, so don't bother trying to send me yet another PM. This is a free forum. All members have the right to voice an opinion and a perspective, irrespective of any personal or business relationship with you. If you have a problem with my posts, direct them to site owner Jim Bourke for discussions of merit.

To the person to whom this PM is directed, it will be readily apparent.
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 08:38 AM
tic
thunderscreech
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New Cumberland, PA. US
Joined Dec 2000
10,936 Posts
I'm still waiting on a hat from Hobby Lobby, they never sent me a hat
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 04:54 PM
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Nashville TN
Joined Mar 2002
174 Posts
Joedy,
How about a job as Hobby Lobby's Public Relations person? I hear you are good.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. We try.


Eric
Hobby Lobby
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