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Old Aug 14, 2006, 08:58 PM
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TP Extreme 2070 "25C", CBA+10X Amplifier Graph

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Old Aug 14, 2006, 09:23 PM
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I dare say we hit the limit of lipo technology a year ago.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 09:31 PM
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Perhaps not the massive improvements we have seen during the past few years but still an improvement IMO.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...19&postcount=1

Nice Graph as usual RD . My CBA ran out of watt handling at 14C.

Charles
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 10:12 PM
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After comparing this graph (TP 2070 25C) to the Enerland 2100 20C from the battery vault it looks like at 20C the Enerland cell matches the TP very well.....

And as I remember everybody complained that the Enerland was seriously over rated....... so where oh where is the great improvement here?

At 20C the TP cell is up to 162 F !!! at 25C it's at 176 F !!!!

Brad
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 05:42 AM
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Good point, bj.

The TP 2100 ProLite could not repeat discharges @ its rated maximum continuous discharge, i.e. 15C, probably because of the temperature it reached at that discharge rate. Afterwards, Charlie explained that the cell was designed for a market encompassing operation at a lower discharge rate, 8C if I remember correctly.

Charlie, I suspect repeated discharges @ 25C, or even 20C, will ruin the 2070 extreme rather quickly. Am I right?

If so, what C-rate market is this LiPo designed for?

- RD
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 07:54 AM
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RD,
The CBA amplifier display lower voltage and capacity at above 30A(I tried it 3 months ago)
If you use the same setup to compare with other cell.
You will find the extreme cell is on the top performance

Bjpaul,
I just look at the discharge curve you mentioned, the extreme pack run cooler and display 0.1V higher voltage at 20C.

Regards,
Charlie
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 08:20 AM
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Charlie..... if you looked at the graphs you would see RD did use the same setup for both tests.

By the way what about Rod's (RC-Tester) test of the Enerland 2100 using a Camlight discharger:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=117

20C delta on temp (74F - 150F) delta 76F
cell after initial dip held 3.35v

I guess we will now go down the path of having the assembler blame the test methodology for results that do not meet the sales/marketing hype. Been there seen that.

Charlie your new cells look very good........ slightly better then the Enerland cells, but a great improvement????? (OK yes if you are comparing them to TP Prolites)

Brad
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 08:31 AM
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Bjpual,
I have learn my lesson in RC groups and in the business world.
I am here to deliver the best batteries I can provide to the market, not to compare how much better than other brand.
I think I just achieved my goal
The extremes series is a major improvement over our last generation cell for helicopters, ducted fan jet and sailplane applications

Regards,
Charlie
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 08:45 AM
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Charlie, please do not misunderstand... you should be congratulated for bringing out this new cell line they do show great improvement over the Prolites and I am sure you will have great sucess in the market.

But in fairness they only show a very minor improvement against the Enerland 2100 cells (depending on the tester) which were very strongly attacked for being overrated based on the graphs referenced above.

So it can't work both ways........ Enerland - overrated, ThunderPower - performance breakthrough..........

Good to see that you have a cell line that can match, Flightpower, Hyperion, PQ and the other Enerland based packs.

Brad
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 09:16 AM
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Hi RD,
Thank you for testing the cell.
I sent four 2070s to Brad at symetric resource for testing.
It will be nice if someone or himself to post the discharge curve to compare with CBAs(please talk with him regarding his curves vs CBAs)
The discharge curve with his equipment show higher voltage/smaller dip and higher capacity than CBA amp at above 30A.

The intended market for the 2070s is for helicopter such as Trex 450, I expect to see better than 150 cycle for such application.
Larger extreme cells has been tested in MXR 50 size helicopter is now over 100 cycles and still going strong.
Repeated cycle life at 20C should be over 60 cycles.

Regards,
Charlie

Quote:
Originally Posted by RD Blakeslee

Charlie, I suspect repeated discharges @ 25C, or even 20C, will ruin the 2070 extreme rather quickly. Am I right?

If so, what C-rate market is this LiPo designed for?

- RD
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 09:34 AM
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Charlie,

You're welcome, Charlie.

I appreciate the sucessful flights in particular models, but buyers need a more general indication of suitability, I think.

My independent measurements of the amperage drawn by the CBA + Amplifier combination agrees with yours - that is, the combo's actual amperage starts out slightly lower than the CBA indicates, declining a little farther as the discharge progresses.

So there's a little less load on the cell than the CBA indicates, which gives the cell a break, so to speak. Even so, the temperature reached @ 25C (CBA indicated) is very high.

My question is, Will the cell stand repeated discharges @ 25C (CBA indicated) without destroying itself? "Over 60 cycles @ 20C" doesn't look too good for prospective 25C continuous discharges.

I see litttle point in repeating the experience we had with the ProLite @ 15C, if that's what's going to happen.

- RD
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 10:14 AM
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New Cells

Folks,

I just returned from IRCHA in Muncie, Indiana and I got to run these new packs in my T-Rex 450 SEV2. All I can say it wow the power was up for more of the flight.

My set up is the 430L blue motor, 13 tooth pinion, 35G Align ESC, JR500T gyro and 3400G t/r servo and 3 285 JR DS servos all on the DX6. Compared to my current TP 2100 PL usage I had more pop and power and I had to reduce the gyro gain by 10 units to eliminate t/r wagging. I also reduced the throttle curves slighlty too.

During the flight I also stripped out the auto bearing in this heli. Its new and only had 12 flights on it wihout any crashes. I did have to auto the heli in the wind, landed ok no damage, when the auto bearing let go during flight. I got 2 back to back runs with these new TP packs and I can only say the heli flew with GREATER power than my current 2100 TP set up. Not to say that it does not fly very well with those cells too, but I think you get the point of it...

I will replace the auto unit and auto unit shaft and get more flights on these packs this week in this heli. To date my packs only have 3 runs each on them. Again I feel quite a bit more power with these over the PL packs that I usually run.

IRCHA was great too. Great to see all the high powered flying e-helis. And our 1010C's worked super. At any given time we had 8 of them going on my 368 RC rated RV battery. We used it from Wednesday till Sunday and it never dropped below 11.90 volts during the charging. We charged up T-Rex 600 packs and 2100's for the 450 Rex's too.

Geeze the more I fly e-power the less I want to even mess with IC stuff.

GREAT FUN!

Thanks Charlie for again making a super LI-PO pack!

___________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 11:32 AM
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A burst graph has been added to post #1.

- RD
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
I sent four 2070s to Brad at symetric resource for testing. It will be nice if someone or himself to post the discharge curve to compare with CBAs(please talk with him regarding his curves vs CBAs). The discharge curve with his equipment show higher voltage/smaller dip and higher capacity than CBA amp at above 30A.
That is correct, but the cause of the discrepancy is not clear, with the data that's available. Comparison is complicated by the fact that I chose to test this cell as a 2000mA-h to allow direct comparison to another cell model I had tested recently. In hindsight, that was a poor decision on my part. My first thought is a difference in voltage measurement points - help me out RD; where do the voltage measurement leads connect in this CBA/10X amplifier setup? My voltage measurements are taken through separate leads connected to the cell tabs.

The second thing that may be a contributor to the results differences are the starting cell temperatures. A voltage dip suggests elevated cell voltage dependence on temperature and there's about a 1.5 deg C lower start temperature in RD's last 2 discharges, compared to his other discharges and to all of my discharges. The magnitude of the voltage dips suggest that even this small difference could be significant. Because the results of these tests are highly dependent on temperature and the cooling effect of even minor airflow around the cell sample, great attention to these details is necessary to achieve repeatable results. I take the easier approach to maintaining test conditions uniformity by eliminating any airflow or significant heatsinking paths around the cell sample. The downside to this is that I get higher cell temperatures than anyone else, so cell temperature becomes my rate-limiting factor. I terminate discharges if the cell temperature reaches 80 deg. C (176F), which happened with this cell model at 44A or higher. At 40A the test cell reached 77 deg C (171F) in my tests, compared to 162F at 41.4A in RD's tests.

This cell is certainly capable of higher power levels, both in continuous and in burst type loads, than the 2100 Pro Lite cell. If you happen to have one of the "extreme" applications, this cell is probably a good choice. However, if your application doesn't fall in the "extreme" category, like most of my applications, the Pro Lite cell is probably still a better choice, due to its higher energy density.

Brad
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 02:37 PM
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Brad,

Negative voltage readings are taken from the black power lead and positive by separate voltage-sensing wire connected to the cell's positive tab.

I deliberately started the last 2 discharges at a lower temperature (air-conditioned the room down to the stated temp.) to try and get a full discharge before exceeding 80 Celc., which I barely managed with the 25C discharge. I'm sure that caused at least some of the startup voltage dip. Notice the burst discharges also; they show considerable temperature sensitivity in this cell.

Airflow is controlled by separating the CBA & amplifier from the cell by a large physical barrier and the A.C is, of course, turned off before the tests.

- RD
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