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Old Aug 03, 2002, 01:11 PM
joe
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greenbay,wi,usa
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leading edge slats on f4 fantom??

I saw a f4 fantom at the eaa and was wondering iff the fixed leading edge slats on the outside of the wing were for
do the prevent tip stalls or are they for slow speed flight
I just found it odd that they were fixed and this bird could do mach 2
also would they help out on the 1/20th scale model I am building or are the renolds numbers to low?

Crazy Joe
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Old Aug 03, 2002, 05:40 PM
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Hi Joe.

I think you'll find the Phantom doesn't have slats on the wings. AFAIK, at low speeds, the leading edges of both inner and outer wing panels are drooped, along with the flaps, to make the aerofoil a better shape for low-speed flight.

At the air display you were at, if the bird was flying, it must have been going fairly slow at the time you noticed the drooped leading edges.

On some Phantoms, the tailplanes had slats mounted inverted on their leading edges, to prevent the tail stalling when lots of "up" is pulled during manoeuvring, and for carrier landings when lots of "up" is needed to hold the nose high.

Gordon.
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Old Aug 03, 2002, 06:03 PM
2014 EDF JET JAM We be Jamming
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St. Louis Intl, Missouri, United States
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Gordon,

On the late F-4E models they did in fact have maneuvering SLATS (hehe my nickname at work)
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Old Aug 03, 2002, 06:12 PM
joe
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gordon I was at the EAA in oskosh wisconsin and had my dirty mits on the slats
well mabby I just got a realy close look at them and they are not movable
I also have a revel model and it has two different wing sections for the outer wing
one with slats and one with movable slats
just was wondering if I could get better and more efficient turns if I incorperate them into my model or if I would be waisting my time

Crazy Joe
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Old Aug 03, 2002, 10:08 PM
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Joe,
I think you'd be wasting your time with them. My F-4 flys great without slats. Much depends on airfoil selection, size and weight of model, etc.

Daren
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Old Aug 03, 2002, 10:48 PM
joe
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thanks for the info daren
I already plotted out the ribs by hand so I think I will Just stick with my naca 0007 airfoil for all the surfaces

Crazy Joe
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 12:08 AM
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Grand Prairie, Texas
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Leading edge slats on f4 Phantom

Joe,
I worked on F4N's for five years and F4S's for two years. The N birds had hydraulic leading/trailing edge flaps. The S birds had fixed leading edge slats and hydraulic trailing edge flaps.

Traliing edge flaps had two extend positions (half and full flaps). The trailing and leading edge flaps used a boundry layer air system to increase lift/air flow over the top of the wing and down the top surface of the trailing edge flaps.

BLC air was supplied by the General Electric J79's compressor, 17th stage I believe.

I replaced many leading edge flap actuators and the drive belcrank on the N birds, but never had to replace the leading edge slats on the S birds.

In contrast the A4's used retractable leading edge slats that were retracted and deployed by air resistance.

The fixed leading edge slats were intended for slower speed ACM work. The slats were built very strong.

This is more than you were looking for, I hope it helps.

R.C.
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 08:27 AM
joe
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that is some cool info
I once changed the 16th stage bleed air tube from a GE LM 2500
this was used for auxilerie compressed air and for the system that injected bubbles along the bottom of are ship and out the prop to make it more stealthy
we went head to head with a modern us sub in some sea trials
cant rember witch one its been 7 years now
we got hit by 16 out of 16 dummie torpedos
we didn't have the toad so the sub would just hide in our wake give us a courtosie ping
next thing you know we are at emergency power doing thirty degree destroyer turns
we did get the record for going from cold iron to full steam while I was in the forward engine room though so I feel good about that
besides destroyers are disposable and anyone who spent some time in the Navy will know what I meen

I think I will start cutting out my ribs today and get started on my fantoms wing

Crazy Joe
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 12:43 PM
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Well you learn something new every day!

Thanks for that guys - a good read

So did the fixed-slatted Phantoms go supersonic?

Cheers

Gordon
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 03:51 PM
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Well, I can't think of an F-4 that wasn't supersonic, this jet actually faster as the series progressed I always thought the outboard wing slats were movable, interesting.
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 08:20 PM
joe
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they had a description tag next to the fantom that said 1600 miles per hour
say good buy to mach two and still have fixed slats

confused me too

Crazy Joe
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Old Aug 04, 2002, 10:24 PM
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Leading Edge Slats on F4 Phantom

The F4 as well as the F104 shared the GE J79 engine. Living proof that with enough power even a nose heavy brick can fly.
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Old Aug 05, 2002, 08:56 AM
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Greetings -

Add to all of that the leading edge fixed slat on the horizontal stabs. These were fixed inverted on the stabs (which lift downward) to improve the "bite" at low speeds. There's a local guy who has two (!) F-4B Phantoms in his truck/auto body shop (wings cut off though to de-militarize them - boo!). If you look at the leading edge of the plain stab, it's rather blunt and only slightly rounded. Late model F-4Es and I think F-4J and later had the slatted stabs. Add to that the Luftwaffe and Japanese Phantoms.

Kevin - Joe Steinmann at the Missouri ANG is in the process of cleaning up and re-painting the F-4E (with 2 VNAF MiG kills) on the pedestal adjacent to the main building. When completed, I'm supposed to get a "ride" on the lift platform for photos. I'll pass a CD on to you when that happens. That ship has both the stab leading edge slats and the fixed leading edge outboard wing slats. I also have a series of photos of the F-100D if interested. It once was the #2 T-Bird ship - you can see the lettering etched on the aft portion of the fuselage.

Fly Fast! Mark
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Old Aug 05, 2002, 09:21 PM
2014 EDF JET JAM We be Jamming
Kevin Cox's Avatar
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Mark, I never turn down ANY of your pictures

That F-100 makes me want to build one. The F-15 on a stick makes that F-100 looks so tiny I wish they'd put the F-4 back at the gate.
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Old Aug 06, 2002, 02:52 AM
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I've just thought of another couple of fast jets which had slats.

The Me163 rocket fighter had fixed leading-edge slots, set back somewhat from the leading edge, and extending over the outboard 1/2 of each wing. Not supersonic.

The first De Havilland 108 Swallow had fixed slats right at the leading edge of the outboard 1/2 of each wing, as the plane was intended for reseach at the lower-speed end of its flight envelope, with a limiting top speed of 306kts.

The second DH108 had retractable slats for high speed work, and the 3rd one had fully automatic slats.

The 3rd DH108 was the first plane ever to go supersonic and take off and land under its own power, BTW. With only 3600lb thrust from its tiddly centrifugal-flow jet engine, it had to dive to get supersonic!

Gordon
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