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Old Jun 22, 2006, 08:46 PM
Registered User
Albuquerque NM
Joined May 2003
27 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacey
Hi Fred,

Sorry I don't mean to take the thread off topic but could I please ask that you guys document the Outrunner class a little bit for us? I've been trying to convince Steve (flyingdog) that we need to give the outrunner class a go as I also believe we will be saving ourself oodles of hassles moving away from brushed but there is still alot of questions on what to use and what not to use. I would very much appreciate it if after the competition the most common motor used/most common battery used/prop blah blah could be shared with us so we can look into this a little better? Now I know with the F5J stuff not everybody is all too keen to share secrets but I do believe this whole thing doesn't involve alot of secrets and the playing field is leveld to such a state that more emphises is placed on pilot skill and not the race to the top.

Regards
Rudolf
Rudolf
There are no secrets. The size of the motor is specified in the rules and the battery also. You pick the plane. We have found that (so far) the best motor is the hacker A20-20L and the best battery (Lipo) is the TP2100 or you pick the 7 cell of the battery of the day. The Lipo will give a small improvement over the Nimh in climb rate. The best prop (by a slight margin) is the Aeronaut 13/8. Several props near the 13/8 work very well.
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Old Jun 29, 2006, 04:49 PM
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rnshagam's Avatar
Albuquerque, NM
Joined Nov 2003
156 Posts
That's right--there are no secrets--at least none that we aren't keeping ;-)
Most of the info can be gleaned from this thread. One of the more confusing aspects might be how to install the outrunner inside of an airframe like the WindDancer or Pulsar, but John Ihlein's photo pretty much sums it up--run your wires outside the fuse for a short distance so that you won't wear grooves in the wires and short them out on the rotor.

Also, remember that when you make your way to New Mexico for the 2006 ABQ F5J World Soaring Challenge, some re-propping may be in order. The contest venue is at an altitude of 6200 feet, so the air is thinner. Bring a selection of props with more bite than your sea-level birds might be used to. The 13/8 prop that Fred recommends has been tuned for our altitude for a WindDancer, so it is a good recommendation for our contest.

See you in September!!!
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 08:19 AM
Dennis Renner
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Joined May 2001
66 Posts
There are no "gimmes" in Speed 400 Class. In Speed 400 Class you can not climb to altitude in 15-30 seconds. And, unless you find "monkey lift" (thanks, Dan Tandberg) on the climb up, loud ticks of the clock start banging in your head as you near the 60 second mark. Oh, the pressure those pilots must handle!

Some of the Outrunner Class guys switched from Speed 400 Class because their motors failed and the costs to replace them, over an over, skyrocketed! So, on every flight, Speed 400 Class pilots must engage inevitable mechanical failure and ever-increasing debt head-on! Oh, the determination of those pilots!

Obviously, it is rare to find the type of person who can both deal with the pressure and display the determination to fly Speed 400 Class. So far, only three of the thirteen pilots signed up to fly in the contest have displayed the confidence to sign up for Speed 400 Class!

Lenny & Steve, a tip of my hat to both of you! I am glad to be joining you in Speed 400 Class!

Dennis

(...yea, ok, I'm talking a little "smack"....so what...)
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 08:32 AM
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.Denver, Co.
Joined Feb 2003
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Sounds to be more Fact than Smack. You go guy!
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 09:46 AM
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Ralph Weaver's Avatar
Indianapolis, IN USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,305 Posts
I don't mean to be critical of the outrunner class, if it helps get more participant then it's a good idea, but...

The point of Sp 400 is to limit the amount of available power. The motor is the fuse, too much current and you blow the fuse. That was the point. Pretty soon we'll start pushing too much current through the outrunners and have the same problem all over again, just with $60 motors instead of $10 motors.
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 09:48 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,914 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
Pretty soon we'll start pushing too much current through the outrunners and have the same problem all over again, just with $60 motors instead of $10 motors.
Perhaps the New Mexico boys can comment after the contest on how many people were pushing them that hard.

And, if you do burn up your outrunner, at least you can fix that, right? A burned up outrunner would involve rewinding it, right? And that should not be that bad (I have rewound a CDROM and found it pretty fun). Burned up outrunner would not damage the magnets (or would it), rotor, bearings, shaft, right?

Ryan
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 10:34 AM
ASK
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Espanola, NM USA
Joined Jul 2002
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Maybe the best reason for Outrunner...

I've got a little surprise for all those who haven't flown the Outrunner class yet. The real reason Outrunner is catching on with folks that have tried it.

It's fun! There's just something right about these planes with the lighter AUW. I think many of our planes have been flying with overly-heavy wing loadings, mainly due to heavier Speed 400 power systems. When set up as an Outrunner/LiPo they fly much better.

5 oz. or more difference between the two.

Aradhana Singh
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 10:39 AM
ASK
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Espanola, NM USA
Joined Jul 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
...Pretty soon we'll start pushing too much current through the outrunners and have the same problem all over again, just with $60 motors instead of $10 motors.
Actually not. Funny thing, too, about the Outrunners. Fred's testing showed an interesting attribute: If you over-prop the performance curve flattens and then goes down, not up.
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 01:02 PM
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Albuquerque, NM
Joined Nov 2003
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Ryan wrote:
And, if you do burn up your outrunner, at least you can fix that, right? A burned up outrunner would involve rewinding it, right? And that should not be that bad (I have rewound a CDROM and found it pretty fun). Burned up outrunner would not damage the magnets (or would it), rotor, bearings, shaft, right?

Overheating an outrunner could permanently damage the magnets--also the controller could get fried. However, I don't think that has happened to anyone in our club in this contest class. Afterall, you only need to run the motor for ~30 sec before the plane is nearly out of sight.

Richard
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 01:48 PM
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Albuquerque, NM
Joined Aug 2002
728 Posts
The one beauty of the outrunner class, at least in my installation, is that there is plenty of margin on all the components. The motor gets slightly warm after a 20-30 second run, but the battery and controller are still at ambient.

The 2s lipo makes life on the bec easier, not as much voltage to disipate in heat. I'm only running 3 servos on the poly Pulsar, but I wouldn't have an issue going to 5.

The cc25 is seeing a maximum of 19.5 amps with a battery right off the charger.

The polyquest 1500 20C battery is running well under maximum burst rate (pulling about 13C) , and 3 30 second climbs to altitude followed by 10 minutes of flight uses about half the batteries capacity.

30 seconds of climb is plenty of altitude.

In short, I don't see anything being over stressed or in danger of burning up. It's a great class at a good design point where everything meets and has good margin. I don't see it as a whole lot more expensive than the speed 400 class since you don't need a gearbox. Power is also limited in this class since there is a spec on what the motor's diameter and length can be.

YMMV, but we've found this to be a lot of fun and the power train is very reliable.

I think I just talked myself out of another nose cone for the Pulsar with a speed 400 power system...........

John Ihlein
Albuqueruqe, NM
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 01:50 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnshagam

Overheating an outrunner could permanently damage the magnets--also the controller could get fried. However, I don't think that has happened to anyone in our club in this contest class. Afterall, you only need to run the motor for ~30 sec before the plane is nearly out of sight.
I thought about overheating the magnets shortly after I wrote that.

I figured the frying an ESC by "getting greedy" thing could happen in speed 400 as well and did not mention it as neither event specifys a type of ESC....

I really like the concept of outrunner class and have been really enjoying my tiny electric glider with a single stator CDROM rewind.

Ryan
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Old Jul 13, 2006, 04:12 AM
Slope and thermal
Christchurch, New Zealand
Joined Apr 2003
402 Posts
I thermal sport fly outrunner sailplanes with Lipo because I can get:

- Wing loading the same as pure gliders at wing spans above 2.5 metres. The power system weight is compensated by a lighter wing and fuselage that does not need to take a winch launch.

- Good climb angle. 15 second motor run is plenty for sport flying.

- Relatively low cost.

- Reliable and no maintenance.

That gives me a sailplane that is fun to thermal sport fly. I then competition fly what I sport fly! I am less interested in buying a competitive model that is less fun to sport fly.

May be other people are doing the same thing and that creates a group of people who are available for outrunner competitions.
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Old Jul 14, 2006, 08:01 PM
ASK
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Espanola, NM USA
Joined Jul 2002
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Annoucement: Now Flying Spd400 and Outrunner Separately

Some pilots have expressed interest in flying both Speed 400 and Outrunner. To support this, the ABQ F5J World Challenge will have separate flight windows for these classes.

A pilot can fly one or two classes at the contest. If you have already registered and want to alter your events, email or call your interests to me.

Aradhana Singh Khalsa
Registration
Albuquerque F5J World Challenge

Hosted by the Albuquerque Soaring Association
Email: ask@compu-quote.net
Web Site: http://www.soarabq.org
F5J Main Page: http://www.soarabq.org/f5j_wc_2006/f5j_main.shtml
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Old Jul 25, 2006, 08:03 AM
Dennis Renner
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Joined May 2001
66 Posts
Hmmm....

Nine pilots are now entered in Outrunner Class while four pilots, welcome Ian, are now entered in Speed 400 Class. Where is your entry?

Oh yea, if anyone thinks that they do not have the correct model to fly in this contest, let me be the "poster boy" for old school ships in F5J. Last couple of years I have flown an Leisure Playboy in 7-Cell, or Limited, Class. And, there is no brushless motor in this Old Timer. It has an AP-29L with 3.3:1 gearbox using seven 1950mah cells. I believe it was nicknamed "Woodstock" after little bird in the Peanuts comics due to the way it flies...especially on climb out.

In Limited Class this year I plan to fly an Aspire-EP, again with a brushed motor, gearbox, and seven NiMH cells. No worries, the "Woodstock" will be there as a backup.
Yea, I have some fancy ships I could fly. But these are just as enjoyable. I sure wish someone would fly an electrified Bird Of Time. It would be great to watch it soar!

So, if you can, come on out and enjoy the contest this year!

Dennis
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Old Aug 10, 2006, 08:30 AM
ASK
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Espanola, NM USA
Joined Jul 2002
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One month to contest. Here's an invitation to everyone to come join us--we're going to have a great time!

You can come for Saturday Sunday only, or join us on Friday too for a warm up day. Speed 400, Outrunner, Limited, and Unlimited classes.

The new rules give everyone an unlimited motor run, with scoring time starting with motor off. Very much like F3J.

Albuquerque F5J World Challenge

Aradhana Singh Khalsa, Registrar
Contest Details
Online Registration
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