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Old Jul 14, 2002, 06:47 PM
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San Diego, CA. USA
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Schulze chargers eliminate the need for slow-charging new packs? (B. Cawley's review)

I've had this Schulze isl 6-330d charger for a while, but I still slow charge (1/10C) new packs. However I stopped doing the "every 10 flight slow charge to equalize cells". Occasionally I cycle the packs.

In Bernard Cawley's MAN review of the 6-330d he says

"I've often used the "3dc" program, which discharges and then charges a pack three times in succession to "wake up" new packs and those that have sat unused for a long time".

Can I sell my Ace DDVC slow charger and use the Schulze for new packs, pack equalization, etc?

Balin
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Old Jul 15, 2002, 03:32 AM
Turbines suck ;-)
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yes
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Old Jul 15, 2002, 06:45 AM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2000
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rorywquin,

I'd agree that the answer is 'yes', with one slight caveat.

The Schultze does Reflex charging (charges, then pauses whilst it measures the voltage on the cell). For a really poor (tired?) cell pack it seems to want to ttreat the pack extremely gently. I find I get better results by giveing the pack a good 'kick' by charging at a high-ish current for a short while, then going into the 3dc program. It seems to cut the time that the Schultze will get the pack back into condition!

Overall, I'm pleased with the Schulze!
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 01:31 AM
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Thanks. Good news and makes things a lot simpler.

Balin
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 03:18 AM
Turbines suck ;-)
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Norman - I know I am an argumentative b****r - but .....are you sure that the Schulze "reflex" charges - I know it pauses to measure the battery but this is not a reflex charge and it is not a pulsed charge either as, the measurement pauses are very brief in relation to the charge periods.

Reflex charging, is charging with slight discharges periods in-between the charging periods. I know my Schulze manual on page 4 states this to be the case.

Also on the Schulze, using a manual charge selection of .1A the charger uses a pulsed charge with a pulse / pause ratio of 1:3 i.e. it charges at .3A for 1/3 of the time giving an effective .1A.
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 06:48 AM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by rorywquin
Norman - I know I am an argumentative b****r - but .....are you sure that the Schulze "reflex" charges - I know it pauses to measure the battery but this is not a reflex charge and it is not a pulsed charge either as, the measurement pauses are very brief in relation to the charge periods.
.....
rorywquin,

Nice to meet another argumentative b****r !

Do I know for sure? Nope!

I'm going by the simple fact that the Schultze does pause (as expected in Reflex charging) and that that's what they say in their docs! I'd need to either 'scope what happens, or know (diassemble) their charging algorithm to know for sure!

The point I was trying to make was, from observations, you can improve the conditioning time of a battery by doing an initial 'wake-up' of the battery, before dropping into using the auto program process (3dc).
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 09:35 AM
Turbines suck ;-)
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Norman - point accepted.

I have the RS232 output on my charger and the data shows no discharge during a normal charging process and in fact everything I noted earlier comes from the manual.

PS I Fly at Fleet - where are you ?
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 12:00 PM
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Sorry chaps - didn't spot this thread earlier!

None of the Sculze chargers perform reflex charging EXCEPT the 8-936, when it has to be specifically set in the charge menu. Never found it made much difference myself!

Secondly, it is advisable to ALWAYS give a new pack a slow (14 hour) charge as its first charge. The reason being that you don't know the state of charge of each cell and a slow charge will equalise them safely. A fast charge will overcharge those cells which have more charge to begin with. Not sure about the 'pulsed' 0.1A charge on the Schulzes - thought that was just the maintenance charge - will try and check this with Ulf Herder or Matthias Schulze.
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 12:24 PM
Official Old Git!
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Gordon,

For interest, could you find out what the charge algorithm is in the Schultze? (if it's not commercially sensitive!). Certainly the manual for 6330D suggest Reflex!

My observation wasn't that the Schulze isn't doing a good job of conditioning / re-vitalizing cells, just that I've put some 'tired' packs on using 3dc, and the Schulze has had to be run, say, 5 -6 times on 3dc to get the cells back to a decent condition. If the cells are given a 'kick' with a harder charge rate (but for a short time, say 10-15mins) then the Schultze seems to 'profile' the capacity of the cell better, and recovers the pack quicker!

Interesting to know why?

P.S.

rorywquin : Don't have the serial interface on my unit - would like to add it but don't want to send it to Germany and pays excessive dosh for what is probably a couple of components!

I fly near Winchester.
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Old Jul 16, 2002, 04:30 PM
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Norman -

>For interest, could you find out what the charge algorithm is in the Schultze? (if it's not commercially sensitive!).

Not a chance, I'm afraid!

>Certainly the manual for 6330D suggest Reflex!

Just read through it and only reference I can find to reflex charging is under 'general information' - this does NOT imply that the 330d has reflex charging.

>My observation wasn't that the Schulze isn't doing a good job of conditioning / re-vitalizing cells, just that I've put some 'tired' packs on using 3dc, and the Schulze has had to be run, say, 5 -6 times on 3dc to get the cells back to a decent condition. If the cells are given a 'kick' with a harder charge rate (but for a short time, say 10-15mins) then the Schultze seems to 'profile' the capacity of the cell better, and recovers the pack quicker. Interesting to know why?

If cells have already been used, then a higher charge rate will normally always result in better performance. Balin originally asked about charging NEW packs, hence my original answer.
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Old Jul 17, 2002, 09:34 PM
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Hmm. Thanks to Gordon and others.

So I'm thinking keep my slow charger for slow charging new packs. And then use the 3dc (cycle x 3) on the Schulze for reconditioning and equalizing packs I'm using as well as packs that have been lying around for a while.

In other words, no need to use the slow charger except for the first charge?

Balin
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Old Jul 18, 2002, 01:38 AM
BEC
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In the space I had alotted I couldn't describe EVERYTHING......that piece started out as a sidebar to the Phasor motor article of a few issues back.

I'd second Gordon's suggestion that the first charge on a pack be a truly slow charge. But after the first one, on to the schulze it goes.

I've also noticed the "gentle" treatment on some packs, especially the seldom used 8X1400AE packs I have for my kids' Push-E-Cat. There it might make more sense to put the charger in manual mode at 1-1.5C for awhile first.

As for reflex charging - to my level of understanding that's a technique that involves periodic short high-current DIScharges as the charge progresses. The isl 6-330d certainly doesn't do that.

All that said, the 6-330d is still one of my favorite chargers and the Astros haven't been used in a long while....

Bernard Cawley
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Old Jul 18, 2002, 02:53 AM
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Bernard,

Well, I don't expect you to say everything, but us hungry dogs out here are ready to gobble up every word. Thanks

Balin
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Old Jul 18, 2002, 06:44 AM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
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BEC,

What's going on? We're getting in the habit of agreeing with one another!

Oh well, let me add my bit - overall I pretty please with my Schulze as well!

Been using it on the Qualcomms - would be nice to get more charge rate on the LI-IOn than 330ma!

Cheers,
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Old Jul 18, 2002, 06:28 PM
BEC
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Well, my 636 will do more than 330 mA...... but I would rather use that second output to put a decent charge rate into my transmitter. I suppose if I did more Li-ion charging I'd agree with you there, too....
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