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Old Apr 29, 2006, 09:33 AM
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TGoodwin's Avatar
Las Vegas, NV
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California Jets June 1-4

http://www.ca-jets.com/Headquarters.html

First annual California Jets at ButtonWillow. June 1-4 2006.

Button Willow is just outside of Bakersfield, CA.

Quote:
This is go to be great event. I just get off the phone with Bob from Electric Factory. He is joining us to promote this event too. High perfomance EDF has come a long way. Very soon EDF and turbine jets will be come one big group. I been wishing for big west coast jets meets with many vendors show up for support for years. I hope Button Willow is the place to start.
I'll contact all the vendors I doing business with for sponsor support if they can't make it for the first annual jets meet.
Kept us posted what ever you need to be done. Getting tents set up is something we should considered too. If there is enough pilots and vendors show up. We should plan this out ahead of time and check with the county if any special permit to have tents set up for 4 days event.
Let get some pilots and vendors vote if we need to rent tents.


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Old Apr 29, 2006, 09:58 AM
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Las Vegas, NV
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Getting some conflicting information here on this event. I will contact the Contest Director.

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Dark Side

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ted
Been busy on the Darkside, Lost the T 33 the Tuesday before Tucson ended up taking pictures , Construction wise 1/5.75 Grumman F9F's Panther (5P) on bench with a Cougar(AW) on the way.
As far as Buttonwillow , IMO will be a Turbine event. Prehaps a DF or two might show up, they are a dying breed,for those who like to tinker.
Electrics will come of age when you can fly with the heavy metal,( fly the same size pattern).I had no problem flying the AW Me262 (midi/Nicad) with the turbines, but then again it was 1/6 th scale. YES Size does Matter
Semper Fi
joe
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 10:12 AM
Watts your motivation
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San Bernardino, CA
Joined Aug 2003
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I'd say. EDF a dying breed? I think he was having a brain fart and meant GDF. Then again I don't ever hear any turbines wizzing around the local school yards so I wouldn't know. The turbine forum only has 11 threads, and EDF has 11 thousand.

Justin

EDIT: He did mean Gas DF, and yes, he did get butt hurt from a sily comment. He obviously isn't living in CA.
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 10:24 AM
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bmiller's Avatar
Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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No, he said DF Justin not EDF.

Bruce
Don't think I want to do the big drive out there however...
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 10:45 AM
Col.Hooligan Air Force
uncljoe's Avatar
Phoenix,Arizona
Joined Jul 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGoodwin
Getting some conflicting information here on this event. I will contact the Contest Director.
Ted I dont see any conflicting info, If you read my statement . I stated IN my opinion It would be a turbine event, . You attended the BITW just how many Gas df showed up ?
My second statement was about electrics coming of age when they flew the same pattern as the other aircraft airborne. BTW just what type of pattern was the f22 flying?
Justin
I hope you stay in the school yards thats where the small electrics belong
Semper Fi
Joe
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 10:52 AM
Watts your motivation
roccobro's Avatar
San Bernardino, CA
Joined Aug 2003
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Thanks Joe. I think I will fly where there is no hurt feelings.

When is fire season (aka: no turbine fly)?

Justin
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 11:00 AM
Carbon fiber is our friend
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United States, CA, Lodi
Joined Feb 2001
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"the same pattern"

I just downloaded some video from Austin Jets and I wouldn't want to copy what they're doing! Wow that looked bad. Lots of really bad landings and a big big fire...oh my!

Steve C
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 11:34 AM
Col.Hooligan Air Force
uncljoe's Avatar
Phoenix,Arizona
Joined Jul 2001
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Steve, I did not want this to become a pi**ing contest, Bad Landings come on . belly landings as most of the EDF's can be done anywhere & usually are. As far as the big,big fire oh my... It was put out by the attendies, who I might inform you carry Fire Extinguishers as part of their flying equipment.How many of the electric flyers have them ready to use when charging their packs at the field ?
BTW a few years ago at Arizona jets, guess who's plane required the use of a Fire Extinguisher.... Yes My (AW) Me262 Electric after the flight a controller burst into flames..... Goes to show you, one never knows when a fire will happen I had to use a turbine drivers extinguisher.
Semper Fi
Joe
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Dec 1996
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Why are we starting this up again? Large electric jets are becoming more commonplace, but that doesn't mean you have to have a six foot long jet that flies at 180 mph to fly at a jet rally. The "pattern" at a jet rally isn't full of five or six airplanes every single minute of the whole event (well maybe florida jets but I've never been there). And when it is, people will pass each other, unless everyone flies the same speed and the same ground track and never perform any vertical manuevers. That's unlikely to happen. Some jets will be 20 to 30 mph slower or more. Maybe they can only fly at 100 mph, like maybe the big A-10 at BITW. So is he grounded because the pattern is "full" or he's not fast enough? No. Just wait for a lull, or use your senses such as hearing and your peripheral vision to keep track of where other aircraft are. Things like a tight vs wide downwind, downwind extension, or altitude seperation are all things that can keep airplanes separated.

BITW was really toned down this year as far as the amount of airplanes and flying. I don't know if it was more the wind or the change of venue (80 miles further than the former site in chino if you are coming from LA). There probably weren't even half the jets as normal. No glow DF showed up, but in the last three years there's usually only two or so, a Yellow F-4 and that Viper or maybe a Bandit. There was less traffic in the air because of the wind. Less airplanes to keep track of but the turbulence wasn't the greatest conditions.

The pattern my F-22 flew would be closer to a turnaround type than a circular pattern. There were two other jets in the air as I recall, or maybe only one. I don't like flying a rectangular pattern, it's freaking boring if I do it the whole flight. The Thunderbirds don't do it for 45 min, that'd be a snorefest. If it's not busy and I have the sky mostly to myself, I'll do a lot of turnaround stuff after the first rectangular pattern after I'm trimmed out. If there are other airplanes up, I can stay in the pattern and perform aerobatics in the upwind pass. If some turbine is smoking by just outside the runway on a low pass, I can stay farther out in the middle and perform maneuvers, most of which blend back into the rectangular pattern after completion. If there are four other jets up, I can maybe fit a maneuver or two in but it's a bit limiting. There's always the high speed slightly banked toward the flightline 'show pass'. Maybe it's not at 200 mph (yet) but it's easier to get a good camera shot at 100 mph now isn't it?

As I recall, there was some noise after the F-22 flight, sounded like clapping to me, so somebody enjoyed it. Oh, I greased the landing as well, did ya see that? If only I was that smooth with the ladies....I'd have a swedish blonde on my arm and no time to build jets!

Why don't we dispense with the animosity and just have fun? Yeah, turbines are cool but they are very expensive and have different requirements. When I can go down and pick up two tiny turbines for my F-22 for the same 80 bucks per motor I paid for my brushless motors, then maybe I'd do it, but that's not a reality now. I'd like for my F-22 to be twice it's size for the same cost, but that's not possible yet. I lament the fact that electric models evolved under the influence of the old mindset of the speed 400 motor and the 2/3AE 600 mah cell. I like larger airframes as well, they fly 'better', have a more solid feel to them. But the larger you get the more the expense. For prop jobs my favorite was my scratchbuilt 1/4 scale extra. Flew great, very solid. From the same cad plan I drew I built a 50 inch version. I flew it quite a lot, but I liked the big one more. I'd like bigger edf jets, and will have them, but not until fans are available for a reasonable price and lipos come down a bit (which they seem to be doing somewhat). How about a twin 120 mm F-22? It'd be huge and be a blast to fly, but I can't afford it until the newer fans come out and larger individual lipo cells are commonplace (building batteries with a bunch of 2000 mah cells is labor intensive and not cheap). But, I'm having fun with the smaller jets. I'm twin 480 or singe midi and 5 to 7 lbs now, those are fun because they can carry gear and rog, which means no bungee, which means a longer life. In the next couple of years hopefully that will become twin 90 mm or singe 120 fan for a reasonable price. I don't need a carbon fan custom made in europe in view of the alps, just give me a fiber reinforced fan made in a shop in china for one third the price!

Keep it fun guys!
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 12:07 PM
Purple power
gregg f's Avatar
shadow hills,ca
Joined Apr 2000
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LA Jets v2 will be May 20,21.
This would be a good one to attend Ted & Ed. Many of the same guys who were at BITW will be there.
Nice field and the temps should be very reasonable.
http://www.lajets.org/

Nice shirts too
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 12:14 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Dec 1996
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Hmm, thanks Gregg, I didn't know about that one, maybe we'll come.

Gregg has a great sense of humor, I was kidding with him, making a cross with my fingers and hissing at him at BITW when I saw him, trying to protect myself from his darkside ways! He just laughed and said, "Yeah, stay away from me, you might catch it".

I did have a darkside vision the other day, or pulling vertical off the end of the runway with a turbine F-22, but then I had a vision of my and 25 hot girls on my own aircraft carrier in the ocean, they were all sunbathing on the wings of my X wing fighter, so I don't pay much attention to visions, unless they have winning lotto numbers in them!

Man, busy month in May, the Power Scale Slope festival at the Cajon pass in Victorville is the weekend after above mentioned LA Jets 2, and the Dixie jet rally is on the first weekend, along with MWE in San Diego and RCX in Anaheim. I really need that X wing to get around!
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 01:53 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
bmiller's Avatar
Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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There are a few EDFs that can "fly the pattern" but the majority of EDFs are too slow and could be a hazard with the closing speeds between your "Average" turbine vs the "Average" EDF. Also size DOES matter in the aspect of being seen at distance and thusly easier to avoid a mid-air collision, Thats why the huge and comparatively slow A-10 turbine can fly its 1/2 pattern and get away with it. That same 1/2 pattern would be the one that most EDFs would fly however the "smaller" visual size makes them much more of a hazard than that giant A-10.
Just need to separate the flights. EDFs fly then turbines or vise versa. Whats the big deal? When roadracing motorcycles, we even have separate classes during practice to avoid the huge difference in closing speeds. At my local field I'm blazing my Alfa F-86 around at 100mph and some kid is floating his easystar or whatever and by the time I see it in the corner of my eye it's too late too take avoiding action.
SEPARATE CLASSES!!!!!!!

Bruce
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 02:15 PM
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There's no need for seperate classes. All this "no passes in the pattern" stuff is a lot of theory that doesn't really describe what happens in the real world. Turbines pass each other occasionally, not everybody flies at the same speed nor follows the same ground track. Taking a 100 mph edf up with two other turbines in the sky is not really a problem, I've done it many times, it just takes some awareness and technique. One thing I avoid is if there's a turbine jet screaming in behind me when I turn base, I'll stay up high or do something else and let him by or over the top or under. If there's four other jets up, you can't do as much but it can still be done if you have a jet with retracts that can get on and off quickly. I tried to explain all this before, stretching the downwind or cutting short the base turn. A good spotter helps with all of this as well. The turbine guys aren't going to want to stop flying for 20 minutes to let the edfs go up, there's not that enough of us to warrant a seperate period and that wont gain us any acceptance, only tick people off.

The easiest thing is to wait for a lull when there's only one other airplane up, it happens.
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 02:35 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
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Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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I think alot of us EDF flyers(including me) are put off by the speed difference and just don't fly when there's turbines in the air. At the last LA jets I met at least 5 of us EDF guys were there just spectating rather then flying. If there was a separate class/time to fly EDFs only, Alot of us would fly at these events rather then just spectate. Then there'd be enough entrants to warrant a separate class.
Basically I feel that flying my 100mph EDF with 150mph turbines sharing the pattern is no fun. I would think Turbine guys would happily give us 20minutes an hour in exchange for less chance of a mid-air when they fly.

Anyway its just my opinion, I'm going flying now
Hope that guy with the flying McDonalds tray doesn't show up!
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Old Apr 29, 2006, 02:54 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
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STOP it! STOP it! STOP it!

This was not my intent when posting this thread! Why can we not all just get along? Where does this problem come from? What is the problem here?

Just wanted to alert everyone to this event. It is coming up fast. I am thinking about attending but will speak to the contest director first.
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