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Old Apr 06, 2006, 09:29 AM
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Aaaala Baaama
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Build Log
Ritewing 40" TL Build

Howdy Boys and Girls,

OK, I've sort of teased here and there about my next project/build, so here is where the rubber meets the road (or in this case... where the EPP meets the soldering iron.... 3M90 meets fiberglass... you get the idea).

To recap a bit, my first Ritewing is a 50" TL equipped with HET 4 wind motor and 4S 3700's for power. This has turned out to be an excellent flyer... great floater, and all around jaw-dropper. When I fly this, all I hear is "Whoa! Dude...." The build thread is around here somewhere... Look it up if you're bored.

Still on the bench is a 40" Demon with a Mega 16/25/3 on 6S. I see this as a bit of a handfull for me until I get some more stick time on the 50" TL and another build/setup or two under my belt. THIS IS A LOT OF WING!!! Itto-day on the ildthread-bay... It's around. Check it out if you haven't already. Good clean fun!

In the mean time, I'd like to have a "take to the park at lunchtime for my buddies to splat occasionally" wing. Some horsing around. You know.... any maneuver you might pre-empt with "Hey.... Watch this $#@^". I'm thinking... cheap... light... and semi-disposable. Well, using the word "disposable" at all is a crime in itself... there is no such thing, but I'd like to avoid high-dollar batteries that require a lot of care or would cause too many tears if treed overnight (PaulVI? You know what I mean.... ;-). Ditto with the high dollar motor. I'm gonna use what is either on hand, or very cheap to obtain... just to see what is possible. Either a fair-quality brushed Speed 400 or a brushless that I wouldn't lose quite so much sleep over if my "extra point" drifted just a tad outside... and tagged the upright instead... (Can you hear the disappointment in Howard Kosell's commentary on the missed goal? OK... so I've dating myself a little.... You's that know who I'm talking about...? You've dated yourself too!)

So I have in mind a setup that is as comfortable for me to abuse as my Unicorn without the nasty tendencies to climb or tuck when the heat is turned up. 40" TL is it. Light is relative (at 10 oz, my XP-4 was not LIGHT in the 60" span DLG world, however my 50" TL is lighter than Ck's 50" TL :-), but I'm gonna do my best to keep it in the same weight as my trusty Uni so as to maintain flexibility with battery/motor selection, keep wing loading manageable, and have a fun portable, durable, and "FAST when I wanna be" wing. Do it all... and do it all very well... is what I am going for. Lets see how it works out...

So far, I've got a box full of parts. Cores/beds, FLAT balsa elevon stock, 2mm coroplast, and .180 spars. Oh, almost forgot. JR ST47's. $9.99 every day of the week. That's a deal that is tough to beat!

I started playing with layout. The attached pic should spell most of the plan out pretty well. I would like to keep the battery bay big enough for a 3S 3700. Why? Well, because I can. I do not plan to fly it that way, but I'd sure hate to say someday "If only I had made the battery bay bigger...." I'd realistically like to accommodate 10-cell NiMh and 3S TP Gen 2 Lipo. I've already got the Gen 2 lipos and the 10-cell NiMh will be relatively cheap, so I think both combinations stick to my "Don't cry over spilled milk" thing as well as keeping things reasonably light, etc.

I do, however, have a question for Ck though. The rear spar is not as far forward as I thought it might be. I've got the front of the motor mount going under the spar and about 1/2" past it. The motor can will just about butt up against the rear spar in the sketch of the forward position of the mount. Good to go? With the battery bay as wide as it is, I've really gotta pull the servos in close to stay in the meat of the wing. Where the servo is in the picture will work out fine, but any further outboard or forward and there will not be enough wing to handle the servos sitting on top of the spars. I'm not burying the servos/control rods, but I would like the servos to at least not stick up in the wind.... Whatcha' think? Make the bay narrower/pull the servos in and forward and fagettabout EVER stuffing the 3700 in or leave it as is? Enquiring minds want to know...

I know... the suspense will be killing you until the next installment of "as the stomach turns," however I am ready to S&B (slash and burn) and may dive in tonight if I get a reassuring nod about battery bay size/servo position.

"Chuck, you are SO verbose. Will you just shut up and build the stupid wing already?"

Until next time....

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 10:02 AM
phillyphly
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You know the term leukaplakia? It's from a movie in the 80s and means "diarrhea of the mouth"

Seriously, I've enjoyed reading many of your builds, posts and decision making process. A lot of your gut-wrenching decisions (3s vs 4s vs 6s )are the same that I mull over endlessly before I get down to it. I'm hoping you post lotsa pics for this build and good luck!

BTW: sheesh, I might just have to get a CK wing after all the raves. Maybe all the $$$ is worth it...
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-guru
BTW: sheesh, I might just have to get a CK wing after all the raves. Maybe all the $$$ is worth it...
Funny... the cost of the cores/kit for a Demon are SUCH a drop in the bucket... compared to the power system...

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 02:18 PM
phillyphly
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Yeah, but I have the motors/batts that I can swap in. It kills me to spend $100 on hunks of EPP (lovingly crafted EPP I know, but blocks of EPP nonetheless). Guess I just won't know until I know... The build video on the other hand and the super mysterious CK glass technique is definitely worth $$ though.

I don't mean to muck up your build thread but I'm running a 4S Astro 020 4T drawing 60+ amps on an 48" UN-RiteWing. Are you ever concerned with getting adequate cooling to a buried ESC? Just leave it out in the wind? It's my first wing (other than failed PCW experience) and I was wondering how much effect a "clean" foil has (vis a vis buried control rods and escs)?
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-guru
Yeah, but I have the motors/batts that I can swap in. It kills me to spend $100 on hunks of EPP (lovingly crafted EPP I know, but blocks of EPP nonetheless). Guess I just won't know until I know... The build video on the other hand and the super mysterious CK glass technique is definitely worth $$ though.

I don't mean to muck up your build thread but I'm running a 4S Astro 020 4T drawing 60+ amps on an 48" UN-RiteWing. Are you ever concerned with getting adequate cooling to a buried ESC? Just leave it out in the wind? It's my first wing (other than failed PCW experience) and I was wondering how much effect a "clean" foil has (vis a vis buried control rods and escs)?
Yeah, lots o' build details you just won't get anywhere else than the video. I don't know how many hours (in years...) Ck has spent perfecting his build technique, but I'm glad I don't have to waste it all over again...

The air REALLY sticks to Ck's foils. I've ranted about trim changes being one beep.... not 3 or 4 like I'm accustomed to. Cooling has the potential to be problematic, especially at 60+ amps. I built a "Scoop" from a plastic spoon that does a great job of "grabbing" the air for cooling. I cut a hole in the top of the electronics bay and stuck it on with tape for now. I'll try to take some pictures tonight and post tomorrow, but look at a clear plastic spoon and it'll come to you without any further explanation. I used a white spoon. I hear the clear ones are faster . Oh, and this is not an original thought. Give you one guess who shared that idea with me? I won't wear out his initials...

I'm interested to hear of your decision/progress. I'd have to add that Ritewing foils are a little challenging for a first wing... but doable. For a first plane? Nope. You gotta be ahead of 'em if you're gonna go fast, and a light touch on the controls if you're gonna go slow. I'm hoping this light build with conservative components makes for a good recommendation for a "first wing." I think it will. Can't wait to get started!

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 04:05 PM
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S&B to commence tonight!

Talked to Ck. Checked out my layout and said "Gofer it." Guess I'm on target for what I'm trying to accomplish... So... with any luck, I'll have pics in the morning of cores joined, bays cut, servos and lids attached... and whatever else I can get done without my wife firing me...

Maybe 'glass over the weekend??? We'll see. I'll try to slow down enough to see what weight is gained and where during the build... Probably a before and after glassing at least.

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 05:36 PM
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YAY! Another one!
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Old Apr 07, 2006, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckand
The air REALLY sticks to Ck's foils. I've ranted about trim changes being one beep.... not 3 or 4 like I'm accustomed to. Cooling has the potential to be problematic, especially at 60+ amps. I built a "Scoop" from a plastic spoon that does a great job of "grabbing" the air for cooling. I cut a hole in the top of the electronics bay and stuck it on with tape for now. I'll try to take some pictures tonight and post tomorrow, but look at a clear plastic spoon and it'll come to you without any further explanation.
As promised.....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=6#post5298190

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 07, 2006, 09:28 AM
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S&B Progress...

Please.... put your shovels and axes down! I didn't get as much done as I had hoped (disappointed murmuring from the hoard......), but I did get much of the chopping and stabbing done.... (some amount of relief and applause now coming from the less-angry sounding mob...)

Cores were carved for forward spars, forward and aft spars installed with pro-bond, core halves joined with hot glue (I've got the BIG gun, not the little 99 cent one...) and bays cut/recessed, including servos (servos are not buried for this build). I cut the relief for the motor mount/prop clearance in the aft of the assembled cores as well (this makes for much cooler pictures :-).

I'm keeping it simple: All the electronics are gonna be in the electronics bay. No seperate bay for the receiver, no extra plumbing, no buried control rods. Simple. Light. Don't worry. Be happy.

I would have got the bay hatches glued over the bays but I took a break for CSI. Hard to resist those high-tech 3-D scenes they do showing injections coursing through veins, or bones fracturing in real-time. The people they must disfigure to make that show....

Time spent on the 40" TL to this point:
About 20 minutes for layout (I slowly and painfully belabored this layout for optimal battery and servo placement... if you did not gather that from my diatribe on the subject yesterday...)
5 minutes to carve cores for and install forward spars.
1 hour break for CSI as spar probond kicked.
A couple minutes to join cores with hot glue.
About an hour and 10 minutes carving bays, servo recess, and everything else to the point I am at now.

A little over 2.5 hours, including the CSI break. I'm certain I stopped to talk to my wife a few times too, but lets not split hairs (She's a real gem! I could not imagine a more perfect partner to savor life with!)

Fastest foam in the west? I think not, but I enjoy seeing the rapid progress of these builds...

Slice and dice... Slash and burn... Shicksha! Hiya!

Next installment will show progress to the point of "ready to cover." I'll try to have covering on standby, but I doubt I will rush to get covering done this weekend. I'm hoping to help Johnnie Rocket with an XE2 build as well... so gimme a break, OK?

As always , if you have questions or would like more details, pictures or otherwise, I hope you will speak up. I'm sure you are all sick of reading about my builds anyway... Maybe you can all get together and start a donation fund to sponsor someone besides ME to pen a Ritewing build thread .

Zai jian

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 08:45 AM
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Glassed the TL, weight before and after

As promised, I glassed the 40" TL over the weekend. I noted before and after weight.

The purpose of this 40" TL build, again, is to keep it light, simple, and affordable. No high-dollar power system here. In doing so, I kept the 'glass job to a minimum, overlapping the 6" Henry's in the center over the battery/electronics bays and the nose where the most abust takes place. By contrast, I'd say my 40" Demon build used nearly twice as much glass tape. Lots of overlapping/doubling up for rigidity/speed. Weight is not a concern with the power system chosen for the Demon... weight adds to stability/tracking precision. For this build of the 40" TL with a "minimalist" power system? Weight = disappointment.

I "bedded" the ST-47 servos so they are just short of flush at the front corners. I actually had to clip the forward facing mounting tab, as it protruded above the foam where everything else did not. Not wanting to leave a flat spot where the servos are covered over, I hot-glued a square of 1/8" balsa on top and sanded to the contour of the airfoil. Totally unnecessary, but it'll look a little better than the alternative flat spot.

Building without burying the control rods was a great thing! So much quicker/easier, and ultimately lighter... It let me use the standard size servos as well. Might not be a bad way to go for a first time build, though everyone has their own idea of what is easy/acceptable or not.

I set up the AON 3000kv brushless/CC 25A I had laying around to do some testing. The white Zagi 5x5 props are what I am planning to use for now, though I may go to an APC if I can find something locally. The 5x5's slide on the motor as is, so it's sort of a no-brainer. Voltage on the TP 2100 Gen 2's I had hoped to use sagged a bit too much for this application. I'll try a fresh charge and see if they do better, though I am not hopeful. I'll have to stick with NiMh's (10X GP-2000's) or my 3S 3700 for power. The 3700 violates the "cheap" part of my mission, though I already have them on hand, so we'll see how it works out. I need to order some transmitter battery packs anyway, so I may get some GP-2000's on the way at the same time. With the 3700 hooked up, I spun the prop hub a time or two (pressed on, not CA'd on) and my window for testing closed, so I'll have to report current draw next chance I get (indications are it will be just over 20A at WOT).

Pics below will tell the story. Minimal glass on the wing panels, some overlap in the middle, and extra on the nose. There is just not much left after carving out that battery bay! Weight with servos and wiring was 9.0 oz. Add fiberglass and it gained 3.4 ounces. How much 2" wide fiber-reinforced tape = 3.4 oz? The better question is what'cha got when you're done?

I'm well on target to get where I wanna be...

Tell me what you think and ask questions if ya got 'em!

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 01:04 PM
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What's next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckand
As promised, I glassed the 40" TL over the weekend. I noted before and after weight.

I'm well on target to get where I wanna be...

Tell me what you think and ask questions if ya got 'em!

I cut the glass over the bay lids last night (they turned out very well...) and did a few other odd bits.

I'll be doing the covering over Easter weekend. I'm gonna give the dayglo scheme a chance and see how it works out. Dark Blue over all with Day-Glo yellow or green insets of some kind.... I'll figure it out as I go.

I'm still working on the prop thing. The push on props are not staying put on the AON brushless I'm using, so I will pick up a prop adapter when I go covering shopping. I'll try both the Zagi carbon prop (they call it 5x5) and the APC 5x5. Will post current ratings when all is known to me...

Should be ready to fly next week sometime...

I am hoping to get some work done on my video capture setup too, so maybe I'll even have a way to post video before I get old and gray (OK, older and grayer...).

Chuck (plugging away in Aaaala Baaama....)
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 02:43 PM
phillyphly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckand
I'll try both the Zagi carbon prop (they call it 5x5) and the APC 5x5. Will post current ratings when all is known to me...
Astro 020 4T on TP Pro-Lite 3S 2650

APC 5X5 ===35.5A
Zagi Carbon 5.1X4.9 ===34.5A

The Zagi prop draws less, has more thrust, and goes noticeably faster. The APC seems too narrow and is just spinning it's wheels in stall trying to push 48in wing.

I've been wondering if this result is particular to my set-up or more generally true. Want to see your numbers...
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 03:16 PM
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Props...

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-guru
Astro 020 4T on TP Pro-Lite 3S 2650

APC 5X5 ===35.5A
Zagi Carbon 5.1X4.9 ===34.5A

The Zagi prop draws less, has more thrust, and goes noticeably faster. The APC seems too narrow and is just spinning it's wheels in stall trying to push 48in wing.

I've been wondering if this result is particular to my set-up or more generally true. Want to see your numbers...
Cool. Your current numbers are much in line with what I expect. I saw 30+ for a few moments before the white Zagi prop w/black hub spun. I could see it start "flatten out" at around 20A, but it held on like a trooper until about 30A. I am pretty sure it was maxed out just over 30A, but it's hard to say without a better prop hub.

I am assuming the Zagi carbons will be the ticket. I like the fat middle. Should be good for acceleration. I'll give it a go and report accordingly. Being that this is a 40" wing, I'll still try the APC and learn what I can and share the results.

Thanks for your comments...

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)
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Old Apr 13, 2006, 07:53 AM
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So I lied... I ended up buying gray/neon orange money-kote. Plans are to do the wing overall with gray, top with orange panels, and bottom with Dark blue accents (ala Demon leftovers...).

I picked up Zagi carbon 5x5's. No APC 5x5's to be had. Will try to de some current testing tonight... Maybe some covering too. We'll see what the day brings.

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Old Apr 13, 2006, 08:00 PM
resU deretsigeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckand
So I lied... I ended up buying gray/neon orange money-kote. Plans are to do the wing overall with gray, top with orange panels, and bottom with Dark blue accents (ala Demon leftovers...).

I picked up Zagi carbon 5x5's. No APC 5x5's to be had. Will try to de some current testing tonight... Maybe some covering too. We'll see what the day brings.

Chuck (in Aaaala Baaama)

Im just concerned with the zagi props (Gunther) or (Carbon)

They flex alot but that may tame the beast a bit.. the apc props are stiff i use the 5x4.5e props and i like them they unload nice but tried the 5x5 Gunther and it was very soft in flight..
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