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Old Mar 17, 2006, 02:09 PM
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Central Florida
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Whom has the grit to tell US ALL the truth...

I know we have some Left wing, Right wing and even liberals on this forum but will some one please explain why fossil fuel at the pumps have jumped $.31 a gallon in 17 days.

Feel free to blame the futures market if that is the place of the real blame. Feel free to put the blame on tankers been held off shore until the price per barrel goes up. Heck feel free to blame it on the product need world wide exceeds the product that is available on any given day. Be my guest explain away when record profits are being made by the oil companies. Do not try to tell any of us we do not understand economics that will not work this time. Do not try and say “you” are just mad that you are not the one making the money as that will not fly either. Time for someone to step up and tell “we the people” the truth and do not say we can not handle the truth either

When I get something like this in my E-Mail:


It didn't take long. Despite the stunning defeat we dealt them just a few months ago, proponents of drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge are at it again.

Because when they can't win the game they just change the rules, now they've inserted language in the Senate budget bill to hand over this precious natural treasure to big oil companies -- even though they know full well that it won't make a dime's worth of difference in making America more energy independent.



Then the price starts to climb faster then a jet on crack something is dead wrong! We the people are being played as a fool. So if it is not Bush and his friends trying to make certain they get there way then what the heck is it? Wanting to drill more oil wells when we have capped ones here already that the state government says they own the rights to. Yes I checked, some states say it is there minerals and not yours. This is bull crap, when one product can hurt so many people it should be regulated just because of that. I for one think enough profit should be made on LIFES NASESATIES to pay for upkeep, wages and reasonable profit. In short if need be the things that are important to live Health Care, Electricity, Fossil Fuels for home heating and transportation, Food and Insurance should be all run by the STATE! As we the people are in tilted to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PERSUTE OF HAPPYNESS and that is a right that should not be for sale and seams to be however. Something is very wrong!

Who has the grit to tell us what is going on?
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 02:13 PM
Go get them Meg!
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See Vintage's thread elsewhere in this forum. Gas gets more expensive the minute there is some shifty news that might effect gasoline production.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FCBrosius
In short if need be the things that are important to live Health Care, Electricity, Fossil Fuels for home heating and transportation, Food and Insurance should be all run by the STATE! As we the people are in tilted to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PERSUTE OF HAPPYNESS and that is a right that should not be for sale and seams to be however. Something is very wrong!

Who has the grit to tell us what is going on?
So you want Bush to be running all these items? The same guy you often blame for manipulating them for his benefit. Your solution is to give him FULL control over these?
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:16 PM
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if we're concerned about gas prices, the easiest way to lower them and not effect the rights of the producer to charge what they want, is to cut the gas taxes riding on the fuel sales.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:21 PM
Go get them Meg!
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And pay for the roads how?
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lrsudog
And pay for the roads how?
Usage based taxes. Put RF tags on license plates, create debit accounts and charge people for their usage of roads. Add to that a healthy license tax to pay for local roads and you can eliminate Gas Taxes. You can even implement time of day tolls to charge people for usage during peak travel times.

But the Gas Tax will be much simpler for the time being.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:30 PM
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there are plenty of programs in each state that can be cut that have no constitutional standing in my opinion, which i'm applying to all but I know exist in washington state.

i'm not going to protect what i don't think should exist in the first place, and especially not when that money is needed for state functions that are defensible in my opinion. cops, fire, roads, courts... maybe, maybe schools if we can get the dem preachers to knock off the indoctrination. other than that, start hacking and spend the money on the first four.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 04:16 PM
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kentucky
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Usage based taxes. Put RF tags on license plates, create debit accounts and charge people for their usage of roads. Add to that a healthy license tax to pay for local roads and you can eliminate Gas Taxes. You can even implement time of day tolls to charge people for usage during peak travel times.
In other words, limit public road usage to those who can afford it....

Eternal vigilance is certainly the price of liberty when such anti-democratic (i.e. unAmerican) views are openly expressed.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 04:46 PM
You win again, gravity!
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Rotterdam, NL
Joined Jun 2004
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In other words, limit public road usage to those who can afford it....
As opposed to making it available to those who cannot afford it, at the cost of those who do not use the roads? I don't see anything wrong with charging people for their actual use of the roads (in principle... the RFID idea has some privacy concerns). In fact, I think it's a plan that will help the less well off. If fixed costs are really high (like they are over here), poorer families will not be able to afford to own a car even if they keep it in their driveway all the time. Yet if we charge for actual use of the road and keep the fixed costs low, everyone will be able to afford a car and adjust their usage of it to their budget and their needs.

Besides, I think you're being overly dramatic about "those who can afford it". Over here, road tax and levies on petrol rake in twice the amount required to build and maintain the roads, police them, and pay for the subsidies on public transport. These taxes apply regardless of income level, and you'd probably be shocked to learn what cars (50% sales tax), petrol (€1.28/liter = $5.9 / gallon) and road taxes are like over here. Yet even the lowest incomes find it a price worth paying for transportation, and are able to come up with the money.

There is another bad side effect of having really high fixed costs. If you've just paid $15.000 for a tiny little car, and a bunch of money for road tax etc, then you are going to drive that sucker till the wheels come off to get your money's worth from those up-front costs.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 04:50 PM
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in BA's world, the fact that someone can't or won't pay for something is very likely to entitle them to it, paid for by someone else.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 04:57 PM
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kentucky
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in BA's world, the fact that someone can't or won't pay for something is very likely to entitle them to it, paid for by someone else.

When it comes to societal necessities only anarchists would disagree with such a premise. Even tribal societies share costs for that which provide said societies with broad benefits.

Of course, I realize I am talking to 'libertarians' who would gladly regress human societies to a pre-tribal era.....lol.

hilarious
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 05:25 PM
You win again, gravity!
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Rotterdam, NL
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Of course, I realize I am talking to 'libertarians' who would gladly regress human societies to a pre-tribal era.....lol.
I thought that a "polluter pays" policy should appeal to green-minded liberals as well?
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 05:38 PM
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Lyle, WA
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When it comes to societal necessities only anarchists would disagree with such a premise. Even tribal societies share costs for that which provide said societies with broad benefits.
which makes sense, since your point of view is a tribalist one. you still envision society as needing high priests, as evidenced by your disagreement with not using judges as moralists, and you still support human sacrifice, as you support using people for their resources
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 06:08 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Hooey. Libertarians want to drink from the well that everyone has paid for until their thirst is quenched, then claim the well was never needed.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 07:20 PM
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Euclid Ohio
Joined May 2005
298 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muxje
As opposed to making it available to those who cannot afford it, at the cost of those who do not use the roads? I don't see anything wrong with charging people for their actual use of the roads (in principle... the RFID idea has some privacy concerns). In fact, I think it's a plan that will help the less well off. If fixed costs are really high (like they are over here), poorer families will not be able to afford to own a car even if they keep it in their driveway all the time. Yet if we charge for actual use of the road and keep the fixed costs low, everyone will be able to afford a car and adjust their usage of it to their budget and their needs.

Besides, I think you're being overly dramatic about "those who can afford it". Over here, road tax and levies on petrol rake in twice the amount required to build and maintain the roads, police them, and pay for the subsidies on public transport. These taxes apply regardless of income level, and you'd probably be shocked to learn what cars (50% sales tax), petrol (€1.28/liter = $5.9 / gallon) and road taxes are like over here. Yet even the lowest incomes find it a price worth paying for transportation, and are able to come up with the money.

There is another bad side effect of having really high fixed costs. If you've just paid $15.000 for a tiny little car, and a bunch of money for road tax etc, then you are going to drive that sucker till the wheels come off to get your money's worth from those up-front costs.
Of course, it would help if the US had decent mass transit, which we don't, except in a few places. This is partly because GM bought and scuttled most of the trolley lines in the 30's, so we'd be more dependant on cars...
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