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Old Mar 16, 2006, 10:47 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
Canada
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Will efficiency become the core question as prices become more uniform?

As the brushless motor market gets more competitive…will it become more a matter of efficiency?

So, looks like the brushless motor market is pretty competitive and getting more so.

HH
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Old Mar 16, 2006, 11:22 PM
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Niagara Falls/Toronto area
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Well, it depends on what you're looking for. I hit RCG to read up on these various motors, but I'm more of a Ford/Chevy man than a Mercedes one. At the risk of putting my fellow continent workers out of business, I'll vote with my wallet for good performance at a great price, rather than great performance at a ridiculous one....

Brad
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 12:32 AM
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As long as hobbyists continue to make decisions based on prejudice and disinformation, no.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 12:52 AM
Builder and Flyer
Brisvegas
Joined Jul 2004
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My next motor will be a neu 19 series, mainly because of efficiency. I was gonna buy a comparable output hyperion outrunner which is half the price.

For me efficiency is a major factor. You dont have to push your lipos as hard, they will last longer, thereby counteracting the higher price of the more expensive motor.

Plus it will be powered by a neu!
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 02:49 AM
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East Anglia, UK
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Efficinecy means tow things.
Going from say 90% to 95% really makes no difference to your LIPOS at all. a 5% ereduction in current is neither here nor there.

But it HALVES the heating effect in the motor, From 10% to 5% of input power...
This may be important if you are doiing cmpetitions - a half weight or size motor is well worth having if it delivers..

But for the rest of us, good enough is good enough.

Most models will fly perfectly adequately on a 75% efficient outrunner, and a pack of LIPOS. Heck most will fly adequately on a 65% efficient mabuchi can, and lipos.

It will come down to marketing and distribution, and the mid range motors will suffer most.

Discerning modellers will look not necessarily for performance, but for quaility - magnets that don't come lose, shafts that don't bend or break, long life, good bearings etc. And service quaility..sspares avaialible or a decent returns policy.

In the IC world the market went to engines that were known to be smooth reliable performers, not screaming high output ones. For every tuned pipe .36 sold, 100 bog standard 40 sport engines were sold.

Thats why AXI have done so well - smoth relaible performers. Unspectaucular compared with Neu, or a Hacker, but there, affordable and in every model shop.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 11:16 AM
Crash=change of flying medium
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Boulder, CO
Joined May 2002
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Prices can't become "uniform"! As Chinese manufacturers swamp the market with low efficiency cheap motors and many uneducated/deceived hobbiests buy them instead of higher efficiency European/American motors, the latter will disappear. Why continue manufacturing high quality products here, if you can't make any profit as people are buying Eastern knock-offs?

There still be a very small market of competitive flyers, but it can sustain only a small number of companies. Many will follow Aveox and leave hobby market. My only hope is that Chinese manufacturers will start competing among themselvs and will improve the quality/efficiency of their producs, but I don't hold my breath...


Boris
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 11:29 AM
Master of 1 point landing
Naperville, IL
Joined Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky123
Prices can't become "uniform"! As Chinese manufacturers swamp the market with low efficiency cheap motors and many uneducated/deceived hobbiests buy them instead of higher efficiency European/American motors, the latter will disappear. Why continue manufacturing high quality products here, if you can't make any profit as people are buying Eastern knock-offs?
Boris
LOL - if you want a Lexus, buy a Lexus - however those 'Cheap' motors are very good for many applications. I have yet to see a DD brushless not perform as well as a comparitable DD brushed, and you get longer run times (although sometimes not that sigificant. Put a cheap high Kv brushless in a gearbox and it will perform as well or better than the brushed counter part. Considering the lifetime is much greater for brushless - thats pretty good bang for the buck for those who just like to fly lighter stuff around.

Uneducated/deceived? Please back up that statement with facts, unless it is simply an opinion of folks who buy asian motors - in which case, believe what you want too.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaBiggles
Uneducated/deceived? Please back up that statement with facts, unless it is simply an opinion of folks who buy asian motors - in which case, believe what you want too.
I'd be careful about asking for facts; it tends to make people angry around these parts.

As such, the name of the game isn't "facts". It's about marketing to or against the prevailing prejudices.
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 01:09 PM
Crash=change of flying medium
bluesky123's Avatar
Boulder, CO
Joined May 2002
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My concern was not about consumers of cheap/inferior motors (these motors are good enough for many applications and I myself use many of them), but about the manufacturer of better and more expensive motors, which can't withstand competition with knock-offs. When someone invests resources in development of a quality product and then can't sell it at a profit because the average market price is too low, it is sad...

Regarding being "uneducated". Every newcomer is uneducated, when he or she starts with electrics. There are too many parameters in electric power system and not all manufacturers are willing or able to provide sufficient information about their products. How about deceiving C-ratings of LiPoly batteries or maximum efficiency (it it's provided at all) of many Eastern motors without mention of the power level for this efficiency, let alone efficiency curves???

My apologies if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to. English isn't my first language, you know...

Boris
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 01:11 PM
Master of 1 point landing
Naperville, IL
Joined Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatZilla
I'd be careful about asking for facts; it tends to make people angry around these parts.

As such, the name of the game isn't "facts". It's about marketing to or against the prevailing prejudices.
Thats why I gave him the 'out' of stating it is just his opinion
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 01:13 PM
Master of 1 point landing
Naperville, IL
Joined Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky123
My apologies if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to. English isn't my first language, you know...

Boris
No offense taken, just wondering what you were basing you statement on. No problem -happy flying!!!
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:06 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
Canada
Joined Apr 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arx_n_sparx
At the risk of putting my fellow continent workers out of business, I'll vote with my wallet for good performance at a great price, rather than great performance at a ridiculous one....

Brad
I think that is the position many non-competitive hobbyist will take.

HH
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 03:34 PM
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Beaverdam Creek, VA
Joined Aug 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky123
Prices can't become "uniform"! As Chinese manufacturers swamp the market with low efficiency cheap motors and many uneducated/deceived hobbiests buy them instead of higher efficiency European/American motors, the latter will disappear. Why continue manufacturing high quality products here, if you can't make any profit as people are buying Eastern knock-offs?

There still be a very small market of competitive flyers, but it can sustain only a small number of companies. Many will follow Aveox and leave hobby market. My only hope is that Chinese manufacturers will start competing among themselvs and will improve the quality/efficiency of their producs, but I don't hold my breath...


Boris
If you develop something that the market won't support, who is to blame?

It may be that the specialty manufacturers aren't that interested in profit, but sharing their technology. High prices could be to keep them from being swamped. That way they only sell motors to those that REALLY want them, and they're something special.

Good Luck!
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 04:03 PM
Crash=change of flying medium
bluesky123's Avatar
Boulder, CO
Joined May 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeavrdamElectric
It may be that the specialty manufacturers aren't that interested in profit, but sharing their technology.
LOL! And who is going to pay the bills if manufacturers are in the market not to make profit???
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Old Mar 17, 2006, 08:59 PM
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Rockford, IL
Joined Oct 2003
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I was taught in my economics classes that in any competitive market the low prriced poor quality products would eventually drive the higher quality products from the market place because most consumers are interested ONLY in price.

Tom Moody
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