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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:04 PM
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New ARF EDF COMING but at what price?

I’m starting this discussion and it is meant in no way to offend, bash, demean or hurt anyone in any way shape or form… It is just that a discussion on a seminally growing problem that I have noticed.

I just got back from the 8th edition of Florida Jets at Lakeland Linder Airport in Lakeland, Florida. I got to see some fine scale models of which most were turbine. I found a couple of Gas Ducted fans and a couple of EDF models. One of the discussion’s I had with a Jet Pilot was Turbine VS Fan. The upshot of the discussion was this. The Ducted Fan is now thought of as a poor man’s jet aircraft. You know for the folks that can not afford a Turbine. This is the second time I have run into this attitude at a Jet rally. When you find that a huge number of the people that are flying Turbines are backed buy the business they own and not by the wages that are paid it is understandable. This looks to be the trend in pricing products anymore. Products are priced so only a select group can buy them. I’m noticing more and more of this approach by manufactures. Not just in the R/C but in all forms of the market.

As I see it to build a model overseas will not for the most part cost mega bucks. To build it in the USA it most likely will. I know for fact a wooden model boat sold on E-bay right now is selling for $249.00 + S/H. I have noticed the same boat for up to $399.00 +S/H. In fact that boat cost is $20.00 American Plus Shipping to Import. Now to build the product in the US a manufacture has to tack on all the fees and taxies he is charged by state and federal government and lastly the overhead expense it is no wonder.

Point is what I saw… BVM is bringing out a new ARF EDF! Yes they are and it is a very nice looking airframe. Looks like one that is already on the market. However at the rally you could not look inside to see the drive as it is a secret. The airframes inlet and exhaust had covers on them so you could not even look inside them. Then I was told that the drive and battery packs were $3,000 to purchase and the airframe was $2,000 for a total of $5,000 a pop. Yes it is an ARF EDF and it has 4 battery packs but you can get into low end turbine for that price.

I noticed a long time ago when working in the sporting gun business the formula the manufactures used. First they put a prototype in the rag mags to see what kind of interest it would get. Then IF it got enough interest they MAY make the gun. After 20 years you found that no manufacturing item is etched in stone. Latest example I know of is K-Line in the model railroad side. They showed a Challenger they were to build however they say they did not get enough orders to have it built. I’m also told now that they are now out of business now 2 years latter. Back to the gun manufactures pricing is another story. Pricing works this way. The guns are priced to how much one can afford to pay. One weeks pay if you will or the money earned in one week. This is not to say someone will not cut there family short and spring for some thing they can not really afford but in general this is how it works. You make $300.00 a week you can buy a Mossberg. You are getting $800.00 a week you can buy a Remington. However you are pulling in $1.200.00 a week and you may be up to a Browning. This is how it works. The people that say no way can say it, but in fact this is how it works. They all work and all shoot it is just how it looks.

It looks like now manufactures want to try and get rich over night buy pricing the product so only a select market can buy them. What ever happened to the rest of the working people? It is a fact we all can not be CEO’s because someone has to do the work and to me it would be common sense to sell the bulk of the product to the mass of the people rather then to a few of the people. I know we do not have a lot of time to play as workers but we still like to play as well. How can we play when the pricing is so high? Or is it we are not to be playing but working and wishing we could.

As I say this is a discussion and I know not a lot can be done but I think overpricing (WHAT EVER THE MARKET WILL BARE} is wrong. What ever happened to fair market value?

Frank


Also I think I heard that a new RALLY was under development... "EDF" don't figure...
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:20 PM
Don't look at me like that....
62pilot's Avatar
United States, AR, McDougal
Joined Aug 2005
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I agree with everything you said but want to add one thing, I've learned in the sign business or any business it comes down to this, If someone needs something, say food, clothes,shelter, they tend to shop for the best price, ( we need a new stove ) / if someone wants something, they will pay what ever you ask,( I realy like that new Heli, I've just got to have it ).....Pilot
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:31 PM
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well said Frank. I love the looks of the Bandit/Viper series but will never own one for the very reason that they are too expensive for what you get.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:40 PM
I'll fly anything...
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United States, CA, Palm Springs
Joined Aug 2001
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Frank,

One has to ask himself are you more upset about the price being too high or your income being too low to afford it. For example, I drive a pretty nice Dodge RAM 1500 4x4 pickup truck, it's only a year old, it's got all the extras and I like it very much but I sure would love to have a BMW M6 ... should I blame BMW for pricing that car just out of my reach or should I blame myself for not earning enough money to justify it's purchase? Just something to consider.

Something else to consider is that designing and developing a high-end EDF model and fan system from scratch is a VERY expensive proposition and the end product will have very a limited market when compared to a .40 size ARF high wing trainer. I'll be surprised if BVM sells 100 of these models. In pricing something like this you need to consider all the design and development costs plus the manufacturing costs, advertising costs, etc, etc, etc, and then divide that number by the total number of units they expect to sell ... that decides the price per unit, not what you think is "fair". Just like BMW making only a few hundred M6's they need to divide that number by the actual costs involved in making them.

I really don't think that Bob (and others in the business) are sitting back saying "this thing is SO COOL that people will pay stupid money for it, so lets gouge them and get rich" ... I'm sure it's more like "based on our costs this is what we HAVE TO sell it for if we intend to make any money at all". ...And in the end they are in business to make money right?

Just my 2 cents (that's $3.78 in EDF money) worth.

Allen
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:46 PM
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Well Said Allen

Some of us scatch build depron - some get an HET or similar - some of us get BVMs.

It's all relative

Having FUN is the point, isn't it???
Randy
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 03:59 PM
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Wellington, Florida
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCBrosius

Then I was told that the drive and battery packs were $3,000 to purchase and the airframe was $2,000 for a total of $5,000 a pop. Yes it is an ARF EDF and it has 4 battery packs but you can get into low end turbine for that price.
Who said this? BVM would never hit the target audience they are after at this price point. $3K is Jet Cat territory, are you sure BVM wasn't talking about turbines?

At most the lipos they were using would be $500 -$700 I estimate and that's probably way high.. and they only had one set if they were charging them in the plane.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 04:00 PM
Robert Wagoner's Avatar
Tucson, Arizona, USA
Joined Dec 1999
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Here is a couple of our popular offerings that are proven 90mm (large) EDF jets for several years now. How many do you want in ARF form?

We already build these for customers who desire our "Charge & Fly" combos along with other different kits. This is how we exist (Thanks to our customers)

Like many on this group offering products and EDF jets, we do our best to try and provide items that customers desire and can afford. I'm sure everyone would like to charge a premium and pour in all the latest technology but it costs.

Many European companies have offered BVM quality products in near ARF form for many years at what most would consider reasonable priced in mine and other people whom know what it takes to produce products.

This is a niche market growing at it's own pace, one company overnight like BVM - it's great to see BV jumping in, he has watched ours for years zooming around.

A public discussion and hearing what potential customers desire is always welcome.

Remember larger EDF is still under development and not for the weak at heart or wallet...

--RW
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 04:25 PM
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mck clcjk








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Old Mar 05, 2006, 04:29 PM
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Vancouver B.C.
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I have to agree. As well engineered as some of this high end stuff is - the price just gets stupid expensive. The BVM stuff - while having probably the high degree of engineering, does not warrent the price. $6000 for a kit!!?? $1800 for landing gear!!!!????? I have to agree with FCBrosius.

Quote:
One has to ask himself are you more upset about the price being too high or your income being too low to afford it.
GlasairAllen - At least for me, this is not the case. I could make a million dollars a year and still not justify flying a model aircraft that costs as much as the average family car (by the time it's all said and done)

Each to his own I guess.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 04:32 PM
Don't look at me like that....
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Boy,I wish I was rich, I'd own this place
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 04:51 PM
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Wellington, Florida
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This is the least expensive BVM jet you can buy currently.



I don't see them trying to sell anything over this price range. The market isn't there and some Turbine people are anti-edf and won't give them a try regardless, if you don't believe me just look at RCU and the thread on the BVM EDF.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 05:44 PM
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Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCBrosius
…Point is what I saw… BVM is bringing out a new ARF EDF! Yes they are and it is a very nice looking airframe. Looks like one that is already on the market. However at the rally you could not look inside to see the drive as it is a secret. The airframes inlet and exhaust had covers on them so you could not even look inside them. Then I was told that the drive and battery packs were $3,000 to purchase and the airframe was $2,000 for a total of $5,000 a pop. Yes it is an ARF EDF and it has 4 battery packs but you can get into low end turbine for that price..
Hi

yes, model aeroplanes can be an expensive hobby. Particularly the high end EDFs are no exeption, But I think you forget in your deliberations that the development costs are as high as indicated elsewhere and the prices are generally justified.
It just is not possible to give some design (or sample) to some Chinese manufacturer and say: make me a few thousand of these. They can’t, or if they can they charge the same prices as you pay in the US – they are not stupid.
Making high power EDFs is a skilled hand craft, which requires a lot of knowledge and patience. For my last one I have actually noted down the time taken up to and including the first prototype (which is also the first pre production sample). It’s very much a normal working mans half year of work! Do you think he should not be payed? So it boils down to the fact that for a large fan and the appropriate el. motor you will have to lay out around $ 500.00 each. I can’t say much about batteries, but I would think that for two sets for your model another outlay of $1500.00 is probably necessary, may be including charger if you get a good deal. Nobody is going to get rich on these prices and the wages are not high either.

One aspect I would like to be considered as well: if you give everything to be produced to the cheap labour countries there will be no manufacturing capacity or knowledge left in your own country after a couple of generations – so what do you expect your children to live on?

Just my thoughts

Klaus

NB

here is a picture to show the construction of the motor tube of one of my fans. No way I give away how to do it after I spent weeks to get it right.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 06:04 PM
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Wellington, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmodels
Hi

yes, model aeroplanes can be an expensive hobby. Particularly the high end EDFs are no exeption, But I think you forget in your deliberations that the development costs are as high as indicated elsewhere and the prices are generally justified.
It just is not possible to give some design (or sample) to some Chinese manufacturer and say: make me a few thousand of these. They can’t, or if they can they charge the same prices as you pay in the US – they are not stupid.
Making high power EDFs is a skilled hand craft, which requires a lot of knowledge and patience. For my last one I have actually noted down the time taken up to and including the first prototype (which is also the first pre production sample). It’s very much a normal working mans half year of work! Do you think he should not be played? So it boils down to the fact that for a large fan and the appropriate el. motor you will have to lay out around $ 500.00 each. I can’t say much about batteries, but I would think that for two sets for your model another outlay of $1500.00 is probably necessary, may be including charger if you get a good deal. Nobody is going to get rich on these prices and the wages are not high either.

One aspect I would like to be considered as well: if you give everything to be produced to the cheap labour countries there will be no manufacturing capacity or knowledge left in your own country after a couple of generations – so what do you expect your children to live on?

Just my thoughts

Klaus
I don't think BVM will be doing a labor intensive CF lay up fan unit. Looks to me like a lower cost, IM unit. Most definatley they modded the tooling for the existing Viojett fan unit with inserts. Good thing is they will be available readily when completed.

How many gas ducted fans were at Florida Jets this year?? A sign of the times..
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 06:16 PM
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Skyhawk’s Quote: I have to agree. As well engineered as some of this high end stuff is - the price just gets stupid expensive. The BVM stuff - while having probably the high degree of engineering does not warrant the price. $6000 for a kit!!?? $1800 for landing gear!!!!????? I have to agree with FCBrosius.

Skyhawk, sometimes I just do not express my self well enough and people get the wrong idea. In this case you have landed on top of the nail now we just have to wait for someone to drive the massage home that knows how better then I. I know that once the molds and patterns are made the product is relatively cheep to produce. When you use an already proven design to start with it gets even less expensive. With the CAD programs that are used today you can tell if something is going to work before you build it. But to pay the price wanted for a good deal of the products today is crazy. They are way over priced for what they are.

Mode101, did you see this one? By the way Less Engine and I would guess Radio.


Ultra Bandit: Big Engine Class painted airframe, clear canopy and cockpit deck, instructions and hardware $7,235.00
Landing Gear System: includes heavy duty retracts, BVM Wheels & Brakes, Smooth Stop II, Hi-Flow Retract Valve, Mini Air Gauges, Tubing, Air Tanks and Fittings $1,590.00
Turbine Installation Kit: includes BVM Bypass (big engine), Stainless Steel Double Wall Tailpipe and hardware: $575.00
Fuel System: includes 3 Kevlar conformal fuel cells, U.A.T., tubing and hardware. Capacity = 6.2 Liters $395.00

The “GO FLY” price - $9,795.00
(less engine and radio)
For a plain white airframe, deduct $1,700.00


If you put up the web addy for the thread on the BVM EDF I will gladly go and look at it. All I can tell you is what was told to me at the Rally. Oh and they had no information available at the show, none! Like I say they could be fishing to see how many people would want one. They did however tell the PILOTS AT THE SHOW THE PRICE IF THEY ASKED just not the public.

As I have a Mercedes and a Jag. I can tell you the difference the in a German engineered car and a GM. The Jag. All I can say is LUCAS ELETRONICS!
What it is coming down to is the prices are getting out of hand. When real necessities, which is Food, Housing, Utilities, Health Care and Fuel are as high as they are then extras take the hit. Extras must go to survive and HOBBYS are extras. I’m also in the model railroad hobby and I’m here to tell you they are pricing themselves right out of business. More and more people can no longer get started in that hobby. As such it is going to have a slow death. The way the R/C market is going it will end up the same way. The pricing is going to be their down fall.

As I say I can get a 36inch 100% mahogany boat good enough for a museum or R/C and Import it for less the $100.00…. This is a mater of over pricing maybe to make up for lost revenue. They may be building to a select few that have money to burn rather then the masses which do. This is not about If I can afford it or not but rather it is simple economics!
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 06:37 PM
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Mode101 … I saw 2 Gassers at the rally

Kauls…. I 100% understand what you are saying as I hand made fishing tackle for years that sold very well…. I thought the same way once. One thing I learned in that time was people do not want to pay you what it is worth. They only will pay for what they think it is worth. Your time may be worth $36.00 an hour to you but not to someone else… However you will always find someone that will pay a set price and that is what the business man hopes for. The draw back is you can make even more money when something is sold at a fair price rather then inflated. Again simple economics!

Note: How much manufacturing do you think is in the USA now? Most of the boxes I see say made in China…
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