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Old Mar 06, 2006, 10:40 PM
No Plane - No Gain
Platteville, CO
Joined Jan 2005
1,773 Posts
I was up there from about noon until about one. And yeah, I was wishing for a bit more lift down low too. But some of the sink was HUGE. At times it was like throwing rocks off the hill instead of gliders.

Fun though.
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Old Mar 06, 2006, 10:44 PM
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seaotter's Avatar
Colorado, United States
Joined Nov 2002
253 Posts
good exercise at any rate.
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:35 AM
there is no spoon...
Cap232ac's Avatar
Pueblo, Colorado
Joined Jul 2005
598 Posts
Does anyone know if I HAVE TO put the wingletts on the wing tips of my Bee? I was thinking of giving it rudders. Anyone try it?
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:37 AM
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Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
28,520 Posts
Yes, use the tiplets. We've tried single center fins and they work
but get knocked off in combat and hard landings and makes the plane
recover very poorly.

ian
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:46 AM
Throw Caution to the Wind
Lavawing's Avatar
Grand Junction, Colorado
Joined Feb 2004
2,651 Posts
What do folks attach their tiplets with? Obviously the velcro doesn't last long. Just tape? Staples? Nails? Carriage bolts?
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:56 AM
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Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
28,520 Posts
I actually still use the Velcro. But I also slit the tiplet above and below the wing
and add tape strips, and one more piece around the end onto the leading edge.

Gooping the tiplets on will work too, but if they ever get broken (especially
when they're cold and brittle) then they're a pain to fix.

ian
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 01:04 AM
Mr. Innocent's Avatar
Oceanside CA
Joined Dec 2004
4,046 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
Yes, use the tiplets. We've tried single center fins and they work
but get knocked off in combat and hard landings and makes the plane
recover very poorly.

ian
...I don't even know why I'm going to bother arguing this but.. As I've noticed in other threads no one over there has gotten the right size fin, bothered to secure it right, and they are all made of stinkin' COROPLAST. The fin on Predator's "super freak" is about a 1/3 of the size of the fin on my old slope slayer, the one time I've seen a pic of a bee with a fin it was again made of coroplast, way too small, and not secured to the wing right. Of course it will get knocked off if its not on right.

Fin Construction 101

I don't have any pictures so bear with me, for a the ridgerunner/slayer which has the same type of planform as the bee I made a fin about 9 inches long and 5 inches tall halfpipe style. I GOOPED (not thinned) the coroplast mount to the bare epp then used a 10 inch strip of drywall tape over the coro mount and spread goop in the fibers, Let that sit for about an hour. Once dried you shouldn't be able to pull that coro mount off without ripping a nice chunk out of the TE of the wing. Now stick appropriate length&diameter carbon fiber tubes in to the flutes on either side of the flute the fin tube will go in. You can either goop, or CA them in place. Now, get a milk carton or soda bottle or whatever you've got laying around that can be cut in to a thin sheet of plastic the size of your coroplast mount, cut it to the appropriate size and goop this on top of the mount and drywall tape. This makes it so the tube connected to the fin has a very hard time ripping through the plastic in a hard hit. Now make an appropriate sized fin out of balsa and use thin CA to connect it to a carbon rod/tube, then wrap a light layer of glass around the tube over lapping on to the fin. Cover the fin with your covering of choice (my reccomendation monokoat or ultracoat) and GOOP the Fin in to the coroplast mount. Now, if that is STILL not enough then I give up. Go ahead and use winglets, but with a right sized fin It will recover faster, roll faster, and just fly cleaner than if it had winglets.

Justin
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 01:19 AM
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Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
28,520 Posts
There's no point in arguing it because the tiplets on the Bee work *perfectly*
at their current size, and it's a lot easier to balance than a big central fin.

Keep in mind, we've got near stock Bees that go over 100mph on the frontside
and we combat them visciously and they recover very quickly.

ian
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 01:30 AM
PNF
infopimp's Avatar
Los Gatos, CA
Joined May 2005
4,422 Posts
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 09:13 AM
Diggin the Foam
Tonasty's Avatar
Denver Arapahoe, Colorado, United States
Joined Jul 2004
1,292 Posts
They are calling for Big wind this afternoon. hopefully out of the WSW @ 40mph I think I will check it out with the 1-26 and the MIG. Oh yeh, I also have a AThorn that might fly.
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 09:51 AM
Where's the wind?
the_canuck's Avatar
United States, CO, Denver
Joined Jun 2004
5,850 Posts
Got LEAD?? One giant dust storm from Johnstown to Fort Collings this morning. Why could this kind of wind hit on the weekend?

Andrew
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 10:34 AM
The Predator
The Predator's Avatar
Golden, Colorado
Joined Dec 2004
3,565 Posts
Mr I
I do believe all that you have mentioned would make for one tough tailfin but, once the coroplast mount gets flute damage then we're S.O.L. As you put it.

"Once dried you shouldn't be able to pull that coro mount off without ripping a nice chunk out of the TE of the wing."

I'd rather not rip out the nice chunck of foam.

Further, we can make WAY lighter tail fins by NOT using any boom or mount at ALL. How' bout simple tiplets??? Lighter ALWAYS recovers faster.

Even further, with tiplets WAY out on a lever arm, namely the wing tips of your wing, their added leverage slows a spinning glider down WAY faster for quicker recoveries. Ever wonder why there are ZERO commercially offered combat wings with center fins? No it's not cause we're smarter then ALL of those designers.

Last, if you are hitting REAL hard, ALOT, like we generally do, a balsa tail will NEVER survive, neither does the coroplast for that matter. We replace winglets alot due to heavey battle and it is very easy with coroplast, not so easy with balsa. Plus balsa is not contest legal as a verticle stabilizer.

The SUPER FREAK is not a combat glider, does not need recovery characteristics, and it tracks VERY well with a smaller fin. I have tested several sizes. I'd rather it come off in a hard landing then break something. Even if something does break it is fixible in two seconds with the set up I use. I used to use THIS Tail (see pic) balsa center fin wraped in, yes, Dry wall tape and covering and it would get dinged all the time, drove me crazy to have a Burrly bat ready to go with an always busted Tail fin.

Mr. I, I know that you work hard on your wings and I do too. I'll bet we have done MANY of the same tests... I did EXACTLY what you said about 8 months ago just with a corotail and here's the wing I did it with. Look familiar???
It was a tad faster, rolled like a DREAM and did not recover so well. I devoted it to MAJOR DS until the elevons loosened up and started fluttering. I really should bring it back to life
In the end there is only one way to be sure who's got a better combat wing and that's in a FAT battle. I hope we get a chance to compare wings UP CLOSE, real CLOSE, even touching .
We have already gone full circle with the proposals you are suggesting. It would be cool if you were a bit less condecending about it though.

ie. "...I don't even know why I'm going to bother arguing this but.. As I've noticed in other threads no one over there has gotten the right size fin, bothered to secure it right, and they are all made of stinkin' COROPLAST."

Especially if you really don't even know what we've done. I do appreciate you trying to help us move forward though. We should work together if we want the best possible wings!!! Healthy competion does not hurt either,
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:22 PM
Throw Caution to the Wind
Lavawing's Avatar
Grand Junction, Colorado
Joined Feb 2004
2,651 Posts
I'm good with using coroplast -- cloroplast, for you Canadian(s), eh?

Seems cheap. Seems easy. Seems like you can beat on it pretty good before it cares. My velcro doesn't remotely hold the tips on. They can fall off on a throw, nowadays. Might have something to do with how many times I've torn them off. Anyway, I may try the slot thing or I may invent some unnecessarily complex way of attaching them.

BUT, I need the coroplast! Is there some secret source that I can walk into and buy it? And are these Bee tiplets 3mm? The Sign Material seems to be thicker and not what I want.
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:29 PM
No Plane - No Gain
Platteville, CO
Joined Jan 2005
1,773 Posts
I've been using sign material, even though it is thicker, ever since this past election day. It was very cheap and easy to find in November!
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Old Mar 07, 2006, 12:31 PM
Human Like You
NewbieX's Avatar
Colorado
Joined Feb 2001
1,616 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavawing
I'm good with using coroplast -- cloroplast, for you Canadian(s), eh?

Seems cheap. Seems easy. Seems like you can beat on it pretty good before it cares. My velcro doesn't remotely hold the tips on. They can fall off on a throw, nowadays. Might have something to do with how many times I've torn them off. Anyway, I may try the slot thing or I may invent some unnecessarily complex way of attaching them.

BUT, I need the coroplast! Is there some secret source that I can walk into and buy it? And are these Bee tiplets 3mm? The Sign Material seems to be thicker and not what I want.
Let me know next time you're in town. I have plenty of the 2mm or 4mm. It's like $10 for a 4x8 sheet at a store down in Littleton. I owe you for making my flying look good at Glacier last year. I haven't found anything that is as good as just slitting it and using uni strapping tape on top and bottom of the wing and leading edge. I've also been known to put some little carbon rods in the coro channel to stiffen and strengthen the winglet.
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