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Old Feb 20, 2006, 07:29 PM
tic
thunderscreech
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New Cumberland, PA. US
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Why lipos shouldn't be used in larger airframes

I'm sticking with NiMH
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 07:32 PM
TRP
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United States, CA, Morgan Hill
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Ehh.. Pilot error. It's clear that He was pulling too many amps with those ducted fans.

Use 'em right and they'll treat you right.

Ted
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 07:58 PM
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United States, CA, Walnut
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Yeah, for sure he didn't know to keep the amps low and go to high voltage.
VERY VERY HIGH VOLTAGE
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 08:43 PM
RIP Ric
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Keep joking, but I often wonder how long it will be before this is actually caused by a LiPo..
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 08:54 PM
Rehab is for quitters
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West Middlesex, PA, US
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If something like that would actually happen and the cause is lipos, stock up on your nimh's and nicads as lipos would probably be banned from all types of transport.

Dave...
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 10:13 PM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyArmpit
If something like that would actually happen and the cause is lipos, stock up on your nimh's and nicads as lipos would probably be banned from all types of transport.

Dave...

It may have happened already....From:Air Safety Week, July 26, 2004

"here is one case where a lithium battery fire may have played a role in the crash of a transport category airplane. In November 1987 a South African Airways B747 combi (a hybrid freighter with a partition separating cargo from passengers on the main deck), with 159 passengers aboard and cargo which included a consignment of lithium watch batteries, disappeared into the Indian Ocean off Mauritius. After a wreck survey by robot cameras and limited debris recovery, investigators determined that the lithium batteries were located in the same area that was established to have been the seat of the fire. The airplane also was carrying a cargo of ammonium perchlorate, a rocket propellant known to be unstable and capable of spontaneous ignition. As a propellant with its own oxygen, ammonium perchlorate would have rapidly promoted a fire. However, in revealing testimony to the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the presence of the lithium battery shipment was mentioned, and is pertinent to what has been revealed by the FAA lithium fire tests about battery venting, explosions, and accelerated self-reactive fires."

Be careful about what and how you ship batteries!
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 12:30 AM
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It's funny that I just told my buddy how surprised I was that they let these things go through the mail with so few regulations like a relatively fireproof container.
I don't think it will be too long before we have better chemistries like the new batteries I just posted..checkem out ...in Li-on-Schmion thread.
Erik.
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 06:26 PM
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Lipo fire risks are way down the list of risks compared to..

Lipo fire risks are way down the list of risks compared to the well known other issues which freqently cause fires and crashes and these are

The wire loomining on most planes particularly from Boeing is prone to ignition and burn out due to its plastic coating is as special mix which is considerably more flammable than other types and for some weird reason the most flammable plastic coating for wires was licenced for planes and the safer types were banned
go figure

Every few weeks somewhere in the world a fire takes place on a plane from small milatary to large civialian types
and when the fire is put out the wiring loom is the source of the fire
every now and then the fire wipes out the plane in the air or on the ground

Certian cargos are always causing problems namely compressed gas bottles and the florida swamp crash was reputed to be LOX bottle fire

Lots of in flight cargo hold fires are stopped with modern detectors and fire extingushers and so small local fires from small cannisters hair sprays etc are often non events

Once the newwer lipos are available maybe 2008 -2010 which can tolerate total dischage to zero volts with no damage fire risks from lipos will reduce to nearly ZIP as inert lipo are low combustion material

What always worries most pilots is the middle east flying where the setting up of camping gas cookers by nomadic arabs to cook up thier tea pots while in flight is nearly impossible for the airlines to stop and that leads to a in flight fire on several occasions

One time it happened the pilot got the plane down but the fire fighting equipment wasnt allowed to go to rescue the plane as the local kings plane was preparing to take off and when the fire fighting equipment finaly arrived every body was fried dead and the pilots who had the nose wheel exit tried to rescue the hostesses who couldnt get the doors open from the paniking passengers pushing the doors shut

The South African (1987 nearly twenty years ago is nearly irrelevant )plane well in those times they often broke the arms sancions and carried illegal wheapons

This meant that if the early generation lithuim cells notorious for igniting caught fire their proximity to rocket fuel and probable rocket launchers and rockets was a sure fired recipe to crash

Lipos are soo far down the list that its not a big issue unless there starts to be a regular problem every few weeks and so far no signs of that


Ralf
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 06:58 PM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treehog
Lipos are soo far down the list that its not a big issue unless there starts to be a regular problem every few weeks and so far no signs of that


Ralf

That attitude will kill someone!

Steve
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 09:41 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu
That attitude will kill someone!

Steve
Words of wisdom!.. it is better to be safe than sorry.
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 04:52 AM
UN Earth peoples true enemy
treehog's Avatar
Euroland
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Hhhmmmm this thread belongs in humour

It seems that this is realy a wind up of pro nimh versus lipo
and possibly the last kicks of nimh dieng tecknology

My attidude dosnt count one bit as I dont fly on planes with lipo in my luggage and or recommend it and or transport it

I go the LHS and buy my lipos and nimh and I presume most were sent by air cargo
rather than get any further into this I will leave you some page from google searches where experts in the field of avation fires express there opinions on modern aircfaft related safety issues to do with aircfaft fires

If it puts you of flying well you can always drive the statistally more dangerous car


http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1999/A99_85.pdf


National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, D.C. 20594
Safety Recommendation
Date: NOV 16 1999
In reply refer to: A-99-85
Honorable Jane F. Garvey
Administrator
Federal Aviation Administration
Washington, D.C. 20591
On April 28, 1999, a fire destroyed freight, including lithium batteries, on two aircraft
cargo pallets at the Northwest Airlines cargo facility at Los Angeles International Airport. The
pallets had been taken off an inbound passenger-carrying flight from Osaka, Japan. The aircraft
was a Boeing 747, operated by Northwest Airlines as flight 0026. The National Transportation
Safety Boardís investigation of this incident revealed that lithium batteries likely present a serious
fire hazard to air transportation requiring immediate attention. Currently, lithium batteries of the
type involved in the April 28 fire can be transported on both passenger-carrying and cargo-only
aircraft but are not classified as a hazardous material requiring appropriate identification, marking,
labeling, and testing.
Flight 0026 arrived at Los Angeles International Airport about 1020 local time..........



http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet.../panorama.html

PANORAMA

*DIE BY WIRE**

************** - everything you didnít want to know about airliner wiring.

RECORDED For TRANSMISSION on BBC************* DATE: 12:07:99

MANGOLD:* As millions of British tourists prepare to fly on their sunshine holidays, Panorama reveals
the explosive secret hidden inside their planes.*

*
MANGOLD:* At exactly 18 minutes after 8pm on September 2nd last year Swissair Flight 111 took off from
JFK Airport New York on a routine scheduled flight to Geneva.* There were 229 passengers and crew on
board.* The flight past without incident but 56 minutes later, while over the US Canadian boarder,
something began to go terribly wrong.* The pilot signaled air traffic control that he was facing a
serious problem.* Smoke inside the cockpit.* The huge MD11 began to divert for an emergency landing
in Halifax, Canada, but only 11 minutes later the planeís electrical systems began to cut out.*
Then the ultimate cockpit nightmare - fire!

*

MICH BAUMEISTER Aviation Lawyer
We know we had smoke and fire in the cockpit, and we know.......



http://www.pogo.org/p/contracts/ca-981006-wiring.html


October 15, 1998

FAA Action on Aircraft Insulation Flammability Parallels Need for Urgency on Aircraft Wiring Fire-Safety



For Immediate Release
Contact: Marcus Corbin or Danielle Brian 202-347-1122

On October 14, 1998 the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recommended that insulation in virtually all of the world's passenger jet aircraft be replaced. This major step, which could cost more than a billion dollars, was brought on by findings that common types of insulation used for temperature and noise control is dangerously flammable. The circumstances of this recent development hold important parallels with how the FAA has handled the similar dangers of another type of aircraft insulation - the insulation that surrounds electrical wires.

POGO analyst Marcus Corbin notes, "The FAA should be lauded for their recent action.......

Ralf
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Last edited by treehog; Feb 22, 2006 at 05:02 AM.
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 08:38 AM
tic
thunderscreech
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New Cumberland, PA. US
Joined Dec 2000
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Naw, NiMH keeps getting better w/ higher capacity, lower IR and higher voltage.. I really don't think it's dying technology. I really don't have anything against Lipo.. I just needed a caption for that pic..
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 08:49 AM
UN Earth peoples true enemy
treehog's Avatar
Euroland
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new caption

meldown zone when two ezoners of the nimh and lipo camp get seats next to each other and the debate starts......................


Ralf
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 10:06 AM
Boffin
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Victoria, BC, Canada
Joined Apr 2001
3,400 Posts
Lithium batteries have already been tightly regulated for air transport. Primary cells are banned from passenger aircraft cargo. Retail stores sometimes ignore the regs.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/trans/
http://www.capanalysis.com/docs/capgroupsept03.pdf
http://www.fedex.com/us/services/opt...teries/?link=4
Nickle batteries are also considered hazardous for international postal delivery and can be seized at will. I had a shipment of NiCd from the US to Canada seized and destroyed.
Shipping batteries as hazardous materials boosts the costs enourmously.

Rick.
PS I assume Ralf is implying that aircraft are too dangerous and he refuses to fly.
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 10:36 AM
UN Earth peoples true enemy
treehog's Avatar
Euroland
Joined Jan 2004
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I read all those links enlightning

Having never posted shipped anthing except magazines and books it would seem that virtualy all types of batteries are classed as HAZMAT if the weight exceeeds a few grams accept lead acid
Lead acid or gel cells only must have proctection for terminals against shorting out
I ant no expert but I suspect once the box has a HAZMAT stamped all over postage will be double triple quadruple

I will stick to going to LHS to buy them and so its a S.E.P.
(somebody elses problem)

I wont be posting cells
If it caught fire the damage cost could go direct to me and lose my shirt and its winter I need my shirt

It figures the fully charged cells can produce some serious heat and fire similar to petrol

even the so called new lipo if they exist at zero volts will as a lithuim metal have a fire risk if punctured and exposed to water they will ignite

As for nimh if punctured they tend to ignite and the oxegene content from the hydrates make a super hot flame similar to magnesium flares

yeah lifes a risk
and for god sake when in flight dont twiddle the overhead knob to get extra lights or the electrics will jump out and get you

When I fly I shall move to another part of the plane if the guy beside me is a ezoner
two radical chemicals in near proximity is asking for heated debates

Ralf

PS
I fly as often as I can but lately in euroland the alternitive ground transport high speed trains got better faster cheaper and no luggage weight limits and less HAZMAT issues
So for flying recently only do weekend city break visits with no luggage so as to get through suitcase search queues faster
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Last edited by treehog; Feb 22, 2006 at 10:47 AM.
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