Instruction sheet with photos for Brushless Upgrade for CP. CP2. HB and others

SSG Scott · Feb 01, 2006, 12:24 AM

Here is the PDF file instruction sheet for upgrading your mini heli (with the 4 in 1 controller) that we came up with while flying our helis in Iraq. If you have any questions just ask as well as ideas on how to make this easier.

You can email me at Scott.helmann@us.army.mil

Happy Flying!

-Scott

burntkat · Feb 01, 2006, 01:10 AM

Sarge-

I notice you've done the same as I have-- tacked into the channel 3 and 4 pads from the receiver side of the board to the mixer/ESC/gyro module, and used them to plug external ESCs in.

I did the same, and testing with a couple servos today [I'm still waiting for ESCs to arrive, so servos are an acceptable test of function] I noticed there is no mix form the mixer board-- which makes sense since we're intercepting the feed from the RX to the ESC/Mixer/gyro side of the 4-in-1, upstream of the ESCs, gyro, and mixers.

How do you address this?

SSG Scott · Feb 01, 2006, 10:26 PM

I left both the receiver and gyro halves together- you solder onto the outer side of the receiver module (see photos). This allows the main motor signals and tail rotor signals to pass on to the esc and gyro module and makes the tail rotor function as normal. You just don't have anything plugged into the main motor so there is no wasted power consumed there. Does this make sense?

If your planning on running brushless motors for both your main and tail you will need to either pick up a signal board that will take signal from the brushed tail rotor and convert it to a signal that can be used by a brushelss speed controller

Or

get a separate gyro for your tail control.

-Scott

burntkat · Feb 01, 2006, 10:30 PM

thanks man.

any suggestions on that converter board?

SSG Scott · Feb 01, 2006, 11:22 PM

I saw it in a thread in this forum somewhere. It runs like 27 bucks. Keep searching an you will find it or if you cant then let me know and i will find it for you.

Mike abcd · Feb 02, 2006, 03:54 AM

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...49#post4517049

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=64

Mike

burntkat · Feb 02, 2006, 06:10 AM

Thanks Mike.

I'm a little unclear why this board is necessary.

If you can take a brushless ESC and a brushed ESC and plug them both into a servo pot on a regular RX, then why can't you do the same with the modified 4-in-1 unit since we've just tagged into the RX servo connections with a bit of solder and an iron?

SSG Scott · Feb 02, 2006, 02:33 PM

The reason you need the board is because the gyro controlled output to the tail rotor is varying voltage to power a motor.

The little board converts that varying DC motor control voltage back to a receiver output signal (which is what a brushless motor control needs for input signal) and then can create a brushless motor drive voltages. Does this make sense?

I personally think it is easier to just go with the twin tail motors as mine have lasted for 90Plus 10 minute flight sessions and are still running fine. But some guys like a challenge or simply want a totally brushless motor helicoptor.

-Scott

Mike abcd · Feb 02, 2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSG Scott

...

I personally think it is easier to just go with the twin tail motors as mine have lasted for 90Plus 10 minute flight sessions and are still running fine. But some guys like a challenge or simply want a totally brushless motor helicoptor.

-Scott

Were those 10 minute continuous flights? How was the main motor life?

I guess I'm going to add the dual tail motor mod to my list for the HB CP2 I have coming. Considering the temperatures over there, it sounds like it will work well even when the TX summer heat kicks in here.

Did you ever look at the Blade CX or Lama 2 to see if the motor "servo" signals could be picked up ala your CP mod? There are some guys in the multi rotor forum trying to go brushless with the Parkzone converter board.

Mike

burntkat · Feb 02, 2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSG Scott

The reason you need the board is because the gyro controlled output to the tail rotor is varying voltage to power a motor.

The little board converts that varying DC motor control voltage back to a receiver output signal (which is what a brushless motor control needs for input signal) and then can create a brushless motor drive voltages. Does this make sense?

I personally think it is easier to just go with the twin tail motors as mine have lasted for 90Plus 10 minute flight sessions and are still running fine. But some guys like a challenge or simply want a totally brushless motor helicoptor.

-Scott

Thanks Sarge- I was thinking it was something like this. I thought you were tapping your leads off of the RX side of the board. It seems you are tapping off the normal 4-in-1's ESC side, tapping into the pins that used to go to the motors themselves-- right?

Therein lies our confusion

I'm going totally brushless. Guess I need to see if I can get this unit repaired.

SSG Scott · Feb 02, 2006, 05:11 PM

The reference to 10 minute flights is on average- lots of hovering and landing on trash cans, table tops, and what ever else I can find to land on as well as goofing off up high and down low in the hangar. Some flights were probably only 8 minutes and others were 12-14 minutes. As far as tail rotor temperatures- with normal air temp (currently at 70 degrees the motors normally temp in about about 95 degrees after 8-10 minutes of continosly hovering, and flying around slowly.

I have worn out 4 main motor so far. They get really hot with the air temp is 105+ (Night time temp in Iraq) and your motor normally is running 120 degrees above room temp so that is kind of hard on them. Flying in 40 degree temps back here in South Dakota- the motors seem to last a very long time

As far as upgrading a CX or Lama to brushless- what motors are you looking at using? I would think the heli would be getting to heavy by the time you add several converterboards and several brushless ESCs. Would it even still fly very well? Or at all?

-Scott

Mike abcd · Feb 02, 2006, 05:42 PM

I'm still trying to come up to speed on motor efficiency etc but I suspect brushless motors could offer enough power/efficiency increase to handle some weight gain. The converter boards and ESCs (2 of each) probably add up to about 12 grams as a guess. A hefty amount on a 827 g stock weight but probably doable. The folks working on it are posting about it here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470007

It would seem nice to dump the weight and cost of the converter boards though if the 4 in 1 could be hacked.

Thanks for the motor/temp info. I'm going to try the tail motor filter first and then the dual motor if that doesn't work out. Short term, my flights/hops will be short while trying to learn to fly the CP2 since it's abig step from the CX. Long term, I may go brushless to get the continuous flight time without having to worry about the main motor. I've got 75+ packs through the CX original motors by flying short flights with cool down but I'd love to be able to fly longer without worrying on the CP2.

120 F above ambient seems *really* hot. No wonder those poor motors don't last.

I really appreciate all the info and your service for all of us. I never believed they could go anywhere with WMD once the UN inspectors were back but what's done is done and we just can't bail now. As Colin Powell said after the first Gulf War to explain why we stopped, you break it, you bought it. just wish jr had been as smart as his dad.

Mike

burntkat · Feb 02, 2006, 05:52 PM

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447808 threead regarding building a brushless CX.

Regarding our presence in Iraq: the entire country is better off. WMDs were there-- but don't think for a minute that the months of warning we gave Saddam didn't allow him to hide them.

Mike abcd · Feb 02, 2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burntkat

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447808 threead regarding building a brushless CX.

Regarding our presence in Iraq: the entire country is better off. WMDs were there-- but don't think for a minute that the months of warning we gave Saddam didn't allow him to hide them.

That's starting with just the airframe and going the full separates route. The other thread is on a BL conversion. Dana who did the first build is very involved with the new efforts.

As for Iraq, I've followed it closely since before the buildup and continuously since then. Let's just say we come to different conclusions and leave it at that.

My apologies for posting about it at all but I don't want my thanks to our servicemen to be confused as approval of the actions of those who sent them.

Mike

fhhuber506771 · Feb 02, 2006, 09:02 PM

What I get from the conversion for brushless main motor (leaving the tail motor stock) in the PDF:

Essentially I could put a sevo extension between the RX baord and the ESC board for Ch 4, and a Y cable between for ch3, connecting the brushless esc to the Y cable.... then use a JST power Y adapter to plug the BL ESC's power into the LiPo.

I could then eliminate the 4-in-1's case center section and the part over the RX. Use heat shrink tube to protect the boards (keeping the ESC section's cover mainly for the labels on the adjustment pots)

Please confirm if thats the same basic idea as the original modification method.

Basicly... I'm looking to avoid soldering in the 4-in-1 because my solder skill isn't great for small PC board work. (and I already have the short servo extension + Y adapters) My 4-in-1's main motor ESC is dead... tail motor and gyro section works....

I've already done a Y from LiPo to 2 brushed ESC's for a dual motor fixed wing and I made the JST adapter rather than soldering the ESC's together.

I have the brushless motor and ESC on the way already... was thinking of doing it using separates (with computer TX I already have), but this would save me from buying a gyro.

(for a while at least)

Feb 01, 2006, 12:24 AM	#1
SSG Scott Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 724	Instruction sheet with photos for Brushless Upgrade for CP. CP2. HB and others Here is the PDF file instruction sheet for upgrading your mini heli (with the 4 in 1 controller) that we came up with while flying our helis in Iraq. If you have any questions just ask as well as ideas on how to make this easier. You can email me at Scott.helmann@us.army.mil Happy Flying! -Scott Attached Files Btushless Mod 3.pdf (404.1 KB, 3175 views)

Feb 02, 2006, 05:11 PM	#11
SSG Scott Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 724	The reference to 10 minute flights is on average- lots of hovering and landing on trash cans, table tops, and what ever else I can find to land on as well as goofing off up high and down low in the hangar. Some flights were probably only 8 minutes and others were 12-14 minutes. As far as tail rotor temperatures- with normal air temp (currently at 70 degrees the motors normally temp in about about 95 degrees after 8-10 minutes of continosly hovering, and flying around slowly. I have worn out 4 main motor so far. They get really hot with the air temp is 105+ (Night time temp in Iraq) and your motor normally is running 120 degrees above room temp so that is kind of hard on them. Flying in 40 degree temps back here in South Dakota- the motors seem to last a very long time As far as upgrading a CX or Lama to brushless- what motors are you looking at using? I would think the heli would be getting to heavy by the time you add several converterboards and several brushless ESCs. Would it even still fly very well? Or at all? -Scott Last edited by SSG Scott; Feb 02, 2006 at 05:16 PM.

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Feb 01, 2006, 01:10 AM	#2
burntkat Jeep Geek with wings Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 377	Sarge- I notice you've done the same as I have-- tacked into the channel 3 and 4 pads from the receiver side of the board to the mixer/ESC/gyro module, and used them to plug external ESCs in. I did the same, and testing with a couple servos today [I'm still waiting for ESCs to arrive, so servos are an acceptable test of function] I noticed there is no mix form the mixer board-- which makes sense since we're intercepting the feed from the RX to the ESC/Mixer/gyro side of the 4-in-1, upstream of the ESCs, gyro, and mixers. How do you address this?

Feb 01, 2006, 10:26 PM	#3
SSG Scott Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 724	I left both the receiver and gyro halves together- you solder onto the outer side of the receiver module (see photos). This allows the main motor signals and tail rotor signals to pass on to the esc and gyro module and makes the tail rotor function as normal. You just don't have anything plugged into the main motor so there is no wasted power consumed there. Does this make sense? If your planning on running brushless motors for both your main and tail you will need to either pick up a signal board that will take signal from the brushed tail rotor and convert it to a signal that can be used by a brushelss speed controller Or get a separate gyro for your tail control. -Scott

Feb 01, 2006, 10:30 PM	#4
burntkat Jeep Geek with wings Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 377	thanks man. any suggestions on that converter board?

Feb 01, 2006, 11:22 PM	#5
SSG Scott Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 724	I saw it in a thread in this forum somewhere. It runs like 27 bucks. Keep searching an you will find it or if you cant then let me know and i will find it for you.

Feb 02, 2006, 03:54 AM	#6
Mike abcd Newbie Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 830	http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...49#post4517049 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=64 Mike

Feb 02, 2006, 06:10 AM	#7
burntkat Jeep Geek with wings Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 377	Thanks Mike. I'm a little unclear why this board is necessary. If you can take a brushless ESC and a brushed ESC and plug them both into a servo pot on a regular RX, then why can't you do the same with the modified 4-in-1 unit since we've just tagged into the RX servo connections with a bit of solder and an iron?

Feb 02, 2006, 02:33 PM	#8
SSG Scott Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 724	The reason you need the board is because the gyro controlled output to the tail rotor is varying voltage to power a motor. The little board converts that varying DC motor control voltage back to a receiver output signal (which is what a brushless motor control needs for input signal) and then can create a brushless motor drive voltages. Does this make sense? I personally think it is easier to just go with the twin tail motors as mine have lasted for 90Plus 10 minute flight sessions and are still running fine. But some guys like a challenge or simply want a totally brushless motor helicoptor. -Scott

Feb 02, 2006, 05:42 PM	#12
Mike abcd Newbie Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 830	I'm still trying to come up to speed on motor efficiency etc but I suspect brushless motors could offer enough power/efficiency increase to handle some weight gain. The converter boards and ESCs (2 of each) probably add up to about 12 grams as a guess. A hefty amount on a 827 g stock weight but probably doable. The folks working on it are posting about it here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470007 It would seem nice to dump the weight and cost of the converter boards though if the 4 in 1 could be hacked. Thanks for the motor/temp info. I'm going to try the tail motor filter first and then the dual motor if that doesn't work out. Short term, my flights/hops will be short while trying to learn to fly the CP2 since it's abig step from the CX. Long term, I may go brushless to get the continuous flight time without having to worry about the main motor. I've got 75+ packs through the CX original motors by flying short flights with cool down but I'd love to be able to fly longer without worrying on the CP2. 120 F above ambient seems really hot. No wonder those poor motors don't last. I really appreciate all the info and your service for all of us. I never believed they could go anywhere with WMD once the UN inspectors were back but what's done is done and we just can't bail now. As Colin Powell said after the first Gulf War to explain why we stopped, you break it, you bought it. just wish jr had been as smart as his dad. Mike

Feb 02, 2006, 05:52 PM	#13
burntkat Jeep Geek with wings Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 377	http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447808 threead regarding building a brushless CX. Regarding our presence in Iraq: the entire country is better off. WMDs were there-- but don't think for a minute that the months of warning we gave Saddam didn't allow him to hide them.

Feb 02, 2006, 09:02 PM	#15
fhhuber506771 Deletedfor proving Nauga wrong Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Posts: 15,865	What I get from the conversion for brushless main motor (leaving the tail motor stock) in the PDF: Essentially I could put a sevo extension between the RX baord and the ESC board for Ch 4, and a Y cable between for ch3, connecting the brushless esc to the Y cable.... then use a JST power Y adapter to plug the BL ESC's power into the LiPo. I could then eliminate the 4-in-1's case center section and the part over the RX. Use heat shrink tube to protect the boards (keeping the ESC section's cover mainly for the labels on the adjustment pots) Please confirm if thats the same basic idea as the original modification method. Basicly... I'm looking to avoid soldering in the 4-in-1 because my solder skill isn't great for small PC board work. (and I already have the short servo extension + Y adapters) My 4-in-1's main motor ESC is dead... tail motor and gyro section works.... I've already done a Y from LiPo to 2 brushed ESC's for a dual motor fixed wing and I made the JST adapter rather than soldering the ESC's together. I have the brushless motor and ESC on the way already... was thinking of doing it using separates (with computer TX I already have), but this would save me from buying a gyro. (for a while at least)