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Old Feb 18, 2006, 12:51 PM
Plane dodger
KillerAir's Avatar
Stratford Sikorsky, Connecticut, United States
Joined Dec 2001
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Truly Fantastic Feather. Coming along very nicely. Can't wait to see her finished and in the air.

Wish I had the patience to do something like this myself.

Killer
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 04:15 PM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
398 Posts
Mooving right along!
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 06:25 PM
Eye Drather Beef Lying
ElectRick's Avatar
Jacksonville, FL
Joined Aug 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerAir
Truly Fantastic Feather. Coming along very nicely. Can't wait to see her finished and in the air.Killer
Perhaps you should do a 'cow'ntdown?

Quote:
Wish I had the patience to do something like this myself.
Maybe you're just 'pasture' prime.


It's looking simply bovine, Feather. Hope you're not milking this project.

OK OK--I'm stoppin'.

Rick
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 08:18 PM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
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Nice work. It must be a labor of love .
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 08:20 PM
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United States, PA, Lancaster
Joined Jun 2003
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I find that I'm really liking the PT-6 look. It really, really needs a pair of turbine exhaust dumps on that cowl. We need to build up a whole mythology of the full-size Turbo-Edge.

Didn't I see the "real" turbo-Edge at Oshkosh one year? Sponsored by Chik-Fil-A?

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Old Feb 20, 2006, 09:44 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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I just want to finish it! Have started covering the 1.0 fuse tonight. Also made the cowl but got CA everywhere. "It's only a model"
Bryce - you'll like the scheme if I can pull it off.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 09:14 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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For Bryce

Here's a teaser. Cut out canopy tonight. Still need to cover backrest and mount canopy, then cowl. I intend to try applying Solite to the cowl if I can use low enough heat so it doesn't melt too much.
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 10:39 PM
Test your skills....fly IMAC!!
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Swanton, Ohio
Joined Feb 2005
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Looking good FM!! Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Tim
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 11:40 PM
Dizzying Heights
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New Zealand, Southland, Invercargill
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*Whistle* Nice work there guys. I hope this will be released as another kit or at the least plans?
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Old Mar 14, 2006, 09:27 PM
Team Broke
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Orlando/ Winter Garden, FL
Joined Feb 2003
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FM,
Thanks for the mini tutorial on overlaying covering !
I will be using these techniques as I start to apply the silver over black on my Red Bull Edge... (Solite over Solite)

Jim
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Old Mar 15, 2006, 06:21 AM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
398 Posts
Feather,

I thought I had double vision for second! You have done a very nice job as always. I think yours is the best looking plane so far I too will practice some of your techniques on my next project and thanks for sharing.
Bryce
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 05:46 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
Joined Aug 2003
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It's a wonderful wife

First she orders the SA Edge for me for Christmas, then she moves her scrapbooking stuff into a former bedroom!
It was in the room where I build.

Oh and yesterday, Bill shipped my 'cow ribs'. I love it when a plan comes together.
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 10:19 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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Cow ribs!!

Got Bill to cut ribs for me which saved me a lot if time and extra words. I can 'build the wing to the ribs' knowing that they are right. He cut oversized holes for my 1-1/16" sleeve and they came out perfect. The fit is snug but not too tight. I only have the spar and te parts in the pics cut out so far. Will do more tomorrow. When I get a little further I'll shoot a picture with the 'little' wing for scale.

Wing tube sleeve will extend from root through R2, R3, R3a, R4 and deadend into R5. 1" Aluminum wing tube (36" long) will extend to about midway between R4 and R5. Should be really strong. 1" tubes are routinely used on 12-14lb planes.
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 10:43 PM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
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Hmmmm, I wonder if Bill would cut a 1.5X scale of his kits. I'd definitely be interested in getting one (even though there's NO guarantee that they would work).
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 11:00 PM
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CustomPC's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Cherrybrook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDoc
Hmmmm, I wonder if Bill would cut a 1.5X scale of his kits. I'd definitely be interested in getting one (even though there's NO guarantee that they would work).

Make that two of us
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:00 AM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
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Yep... he doesn't even need to provide the hardware. We'll do that ourselves . Bill are you listening ? :P
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 07:04 AM
Use the 4S Luke
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Biggest problem with just cutting 1.5X is that he lays out his parts for 4" X 24" wood because that's the largest his laser cutter can handle. To cut the same plane at 1.5X he would have to either buy a 6" X 36" capable laser (and the wood) or re-layout his parts. Some of the parts would not fit on a 24" sheet anyway and so would have to be pieced. I haven't even mentioned the fit problems that would be encountered as a result of say scaling 3/32" by 1.5X or deciding to sheet the wing with 1/16 instead of 3/32. I've had to make those adjustments myself. And what about cowls and canopies? Lots of expense (risk) for him unless he is sure he can sell many kits (like 400).
If you look closely at his store, he makes a practice of selling everything you need to complete the model. He does not do short kits. So this would be a philosiphy change for him.
I do think he could sell plans but they would have to be drawn up as his present plans are not complete.
I have been saving my paper templates for the parts I have made. Is anyone interested in building one of these?
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 07:52 AM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
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At some point, (when I have the time to build again), I'd be interested. Of course, I'd have to buy the original kit first, because otherwise, I'd be "stealing." .
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 09:27 AM
Test your skills....fly IMAC!!
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Swanton, Ohio
Joined Feb 2005
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Good Lord FM, how many planes do you have camping out in that room. Are they all flyable? So many planes, so little time.

Tim
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sun.flyer
Good Lord FM, how many planes do you have camping out in that room. Are they all flyable? So many planes, so little time.

Tim
Ha, Ha, Ha, .....my wife would say "he's out of control" .
FM, looks like a perfect set-up to me .
Ed
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 12:13 PM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
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Feather,

I am interested as well. Another big plane is just what I need. After seeing your room I seem to suffer from plane envy.
Bryce
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:20 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Almost all of the planes are flyable. I need a bigger car. And I just bought a Polk Tracker III with 99 model memories.
Some are being refitted. The GeeBee for instance had a 22/20/2 on 4S and flew great with a 16X12 at 900+ Watts in (65-70A!) but the motor got awfully hot so I've switched to a 22/30/2 and tried it on a 17X12 on 4S but it was just too slow and I nearly ran out of rudder on takeoff. So with Motocalc's help I tried a 16X10 on 6S and it pulled 1,100+ Watts!!! I now have a 15X10 to try. And you could not see the wall behind the camera. It has 2 more planes on it. And the attic space behind that wall has some old control line planes.
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:54 PM
Test your skills....fly IMAC!!
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Swanton, Ohio
Joined Feb 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
Almost all of the planes are flyable. I need a bigger car. And I just bought a Polk Tracker III with 99 model memories.
Some are being refitted. The GeeBee for instance had a 22/20/2 on 4S and flew great with a 16X12 at 900+ Watts in (65-70A!) but the motor got awfully hot so I've switched to a 22/30/2 and tried it on a 17X12 on 4S but it was just too slow and I nearly ran out of rudder on takeoff. So with Motocalc's help I tried a 16X10 on 6S and it pulled 1,100+ Watts!!! I now have a 15X10 to try. And you could not see the wall behind the camera. It has 2 more planes on it. And the attic space behind that wall has some old control line planes.
A man to envy!

Tim
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 03:01 PM
...missing the PE Slope Rebels
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United States, MI, Manchester
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great looking room, FM

looks like your Siamese Cap has been surgically "separated"........
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 04:09 PM
Aerial Shutterbug
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San Mateo, California, United States
Joined Nov 2001
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I think the contrast between the His and Hers side of the room is funny...FM must be suffering from <ahem> Mad-Cow disease.

Seriously FM I love the cow scheme, it looks great!

-Roger
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 04:39 PM
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Grass Valley California
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FM

did you see the turbo raven on Quiet flyer? food for thought for the cowel on the 1.5

Dennis
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Old Mar 25, 2006, 08:13 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Have installed sleeve in one panel and glued it in. Makes the thing really stiff. Used a piece of 1/32 sheet rolled up and CA'd in the sleeve to stop the aluminum wing tube from sliding too far into the wing. Gotta make the TE and trim the sleeve. The ailerons are HUGE.
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 09:57 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Other wing

Framed right wing. Only have to final glue and cut off stub of wing sleeve. Here are some pics detailing my paper to balsa technique.
FYI the longer and narrower the piece of paper the more likely to get curved when layed down. That 24" Quilter's rule will show and curve. The first spar I marked crooked and so had to compensate when cutting it out. The LE and TE pieces in the post above were stripped instead of cut because it seemed easier. The second spar went a lot faster because I eliminated the tabs and I knew what I was doing. I decided not to cut out the lightening holes near the tip because it would save very little weight and I want all the strength. Sometimes I'm clumsy.
When I fit the first wing panel on the fuse, the retaining bolt hole and antirotation pin holes lined up perfectly. The pins are 1/4" dowel with ply reinforcements in the fuse and on R1. I'll install the fuse reinforcements after the wings are complete so I can tweek incidence.
Bill this thing is setup 0-0 right?
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 10:29 PM
FASST flyer
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USA, OH, Newark
Joined Sep 2001
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Quote:
Floppy paper pattern and marked wood. Fine Sharpie ain't too great.
Have you tried printing with a laser printer and using a hot iron to transfer the print to the wood? I've glued the paper to the wood with spray adhesive, and then cut the paper and wood. When some of the paper was hard to remove, an enterprising friend shot the paper with motor cleaner spary, and the paper fell right off.
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 11:03 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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Well th epatterns were printed on a giant laser printer but they are still floppy when long and skinny. Anyway all I have left to cut out is LE and TE pieces and sheet. I may try the iron trick on the aileron pieces.
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:00 AM
Plane dodger
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Stratford Sikorsky, Connecticut, United States
Joined Dec 2001
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To remove residue from Spray mount or other rubber adhesives use Bestine. Also it is best when you spray to let the glue set for about 5 minutes before applying to surface. This prevents glue from seeping into wood grain and creating a very strong bond. Feather stuff looks great!

Killer
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 06:04 PM
FASST flyer
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USA, OH, Newark
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What's Bestine, and where do you get it?

Looks great feather!
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 11:25 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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Progress

Got one large panel sheeted, LE on and carved/rough sanded to shape. I decided to go with 3/32 sheet. It weighed the same as my 1/16 but being thicker it won't sag between the ribs as much and should make the wing stiffer. Had to slightly dampen it to make it cooperate. No laser cut lines like the SA kit to help it bend.
Construction note: Sheeting wing - start by gluing the sheet to the spar. Without tabs on the wing/sheet you must make sure that the spar is held straight while gluing the sheet to it. I found that a piece of 3/16 sheet (actually a LE) between the rear of the sheet and the front of the rib tabs works great. Leave the sheet a little wide then after gluing, plane/sand it so it is flush with the ribs and LE1. Then LE2 the real leading edge which is left a little wide will glue right on. Finally plane/sand LE2 to shape.

Next up is to mount the panels and cut the sheet between R1 and R2. R1 does not want to fit snug against the fuse so I'll cut sheet to make it fit.
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 11:46 PM
Plane dodger
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Stratford Sikorsky, Connecticut, United States
Joined Dec 2001
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Lookin very nice FM.
Kat Bestine is a Rubber cement solvent, remover,degreaser and turkey basting. Find it at your local art supply store. Wear gloves. Nasty stuff, we graphic guys use to bath in the stuff and god knows what it has donnmmmhasdlfkb ugwer hwge rwiuerliu

relliK
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 05:41 AM
Registered Snoozer
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San Francisco, CA, USA
Joined Jul 1999
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OAMLFOR! Good one, Killer.
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 09:30 AM
Registered User
Huntington Beach Ca.
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That was great rellik. careful now, that could be your new handle
yobeikood
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 11:57 AM
High Roller designer
Impact's Avatar
Londonderry NH
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Looking good feathermerchant. It looks like the aileron about the same size as the 1.0 edge wing. Good job.......Impact
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 10:23 PM
Use the 4S Luke
feathermerchant's Avatar
USA, TX, Euless
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Put LE's on 1.0 wing panels and put LE on second 1.5 panel.
I'm building 4 wings!
Anyway the pics show a little more detail how I'm doing the 1.5
I like it better than the SA wing because I'm sanding the sheet flat, and am able to glue LE1 to LE2 as well as glue the sheet flat to the LE. Sanded, that 3/32 sheeting looks more like 3/16 so there's a lot of gluing area. The panels are ~ 5.5 oz so far and need ailerons, the last TE piece, some sheeting in the center section, and cap strips, covering, servo, and linkage. I estimated 16oz for each but it may be more like 10 which would be great. That would put me under 7lb.
So far, the wing is really rigid. Even with no TE or cap strips or the other center section sheet in place. You can grab it at both ends and twist but you can't feel it move.
The ailerons are huge and have me a little concerned about stiffness. I've bought some CF for the TE but I'll probably also install diagonal bracing.
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Old Apr 04, 2006, 02:19 PM
Glow Free Since Aug, 2005
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Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Joined Aug 2004
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I agree with you on your modification to the aileron horn installation. I much prefer the plywood horns (a-la Groove) to the plastic ones with the two spikes. My Groove V1 has ply horns all around and has never had a problem. Note that Groove V2 comes with plywood aileron horns, but plastic elevator rudder horns.

On my Edge 540, the rudder plastic horn pulled out early on when I had a bit of a cartwheel on landing. If I were to do it again, I’d either go with the ply horns, or the du-bro style where you send two screws through the control surface into a back plate on the far side.

Lookin’ good. I found the sheeting on the SA Edge wing a bit of a pain.

Tom
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Old Apr 04, 2006, 11:57 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Yeah I botched the sheet on the 1.0 Edge too. May have to build some more wings.
I've never liked seeing the top of the control horn plate with screws poking up. Almost al of my planes have ply horns. Just tested the clevises I bought for the 1.5 and they will accomodate 3/32. So it will be 3/32 ply horns for the ailerons.
I've cut out the aileron TE pieces and marked A1-A6 for cutting out tomorrow. Then the LE pieces and I can start assembly.
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Old Apr 05, 2006, 09:52 AM
Pro Bro #1008
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USA, TX, Weatherford
Joined Sep 2003
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c'mon man..get on with it..! hahaha i can't wait to see that plane fly FM..

birdie
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Old Apr 06, 2006, 03:01 PM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
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Feather,

Looks great! Keep it going! Buy the wife some flowers, new shoes, and maybe some jewelry, and get the kids a few new video games....that way you'll have plenty of time to finish and an extra shoe box!

Bryce
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Old Apr 09, 2006, 11:04 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Went to A&M this weekend for parents weekend. Had a great time.
Finished one aileron and got a great deal of work done on the other. I may still add diagonals but it is pretty stiff as is. Wing and ail together are 10.3oz so I should be under my wing panel AUW of 16oz each. So 7lb is attainable. WooHoo! I'll have Tues and Fri off so maiden may come Sat.
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Old Apr 09, 2006, 11:12 PM
Test your skills....fly IMAC!!
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Swanton, Ohio
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Looking good FM!! Keep up the good work.

Tim
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 10:09 AM
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Santiago Pudahuel, Chile
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impressive!!!

JL
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 11:41 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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I added some internal bracing to the ailerons to make them stiffer. It helped some. I should have used harder wood though.
Wings are covered, ailerons are half covered. Should finish covering tomorrow night and maybe hinge the ailerons. Gotta do taxes too. Still shooting for Sat maiden.
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 04:20 PM
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Finishing up. Used fishing line to tie aileron extension connections together.
Checked wing incidences. Both were the same ~.5deg. I set them to 0 by filing the antirotation pin hole in the fuse. Then while holding the wing at the cirrect angle. I slid the portable hole over the pin and CA'd them to the inside of the fuse. Note the incidence meter attached to the aileron. It's not big enough to go all the way to the wing root.
Aileron linkage is straight forward but I'm using 4-40 hardware. Note that the 3/32" ply horn is sandwiched between 2 aileron ribs and is full depth. It has the strange shape because I wanted to get the pivot point on the hinge line and it has to be tall enough not to hit the wing at full throw. I can't get 45deg but probably more like 35-40.
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 05:23 PM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
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Nice job Feather! Is it going up in the morning?
Bryce
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 06:25 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Supposed to be really windy here. We'll see.
I'll be sending you a package soon.
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 10:19 PM
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Looks GREAT FM !!

Good luck with your maiden.

Ed
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 12:16 AM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
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Bovine minds want to know..how did it moo?
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 09:22 AM
Use the 4S Luke
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Not yet. Wind was horrific yesterday. Maybe this afternoon.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 08:10 PM
gwh
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Fort Worth, Texas
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It flew.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:12 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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USA, TX, Euless
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Maiden

Here are a few pics just in case and one after shot. Aparently the elevators fluttered and most of the right hand one departed the plane. I made the pattern and landed without event. It seemed to fly pretty normally considering that a lot of elevator was missing. Further inspection also shows the LH side of the Stabilizer trailing edge is broken so I was really lucky.
The CG was between the spar and the front of the servo and it flew very stable there. To get that CG I had to put half of the battery thru the firewall so I'll be moving the rudder servo into the fuselage somewhere around the cockpit and using pull-pulls. After I rebuild the stab and maybe the rudder I may need to go with a larger motor to balance.
Video is here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506477
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:34 PM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
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Lol, it even fluttered just like the regular edge did (Doc-E's). I'm glad things went well. So what's your AUW?
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:43 PM
Use the 4S Luke
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Sorry. Near as I can tell 7lb 2oz. with this setup.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:47 PM
gwh
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Joined Dec 1996
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Bet 7lb 4oz would have been better.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 11:18 PM
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I am glad to see it back on the ground with minor? work to do.
one of the trials and tribulations in breaking new ground,it looks like all of the effort will be well worth it. SOLID looking flight ,up to a point.

Congratus
Dennis
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 02:24 AM
TKG
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How about a photo with a reference point in it, like a people.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 02:34 AM
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Just watch the video. He stood right next to it at the beginning.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 06:55 AM
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Yep. I had a member take a pic too (he thought) but I guess it didn't come out.
The video is way short because RCGroups has a 20MB induividual file size limit. I'll have to recode the file for lower quality to get it to fit but it shows the high speed pass where the flutter occurs. You can even see the elevaor piece departing.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 09:09 AM
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Alrighty there Cowboy! Will have to check out the vid when my kid gets off my Dell.
Congrats on a big project FM! Good sticks and glad to hear you got her down okay.

Killer
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 09:19 AM
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Nice work FM!! I second Killer in getting it down in one piece. It appears that most of the damage was on the counterbalance portion of the elevator. Was there any additional damage to the rest of the elevator portion? I know you said the horizontal stab showed some cracking but did not hear anything about the rest of the elevator. Just curious.

Tim
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:14 AM
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I would add some flying wires to the tail if I were you. With such a light framework, it only pays to be proactive on preventing flutter. Hope you get it fixed for Sherman this Saturday ! I am stoked at how well it turned out, now where is mine ? LOL !

Rick
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:28 AM
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you and those Holstein schemes..!! love it!!

am glad you did not lose the plane!! "git 'er done"..!!
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 11:53 AM
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I won't have it for Sherman. I'll have to cut out the horizontal stab and build a new one. It will be much stronger and stiffer. I'll also strip the pink covering off the bottom and inspect the airframe while moving the rudder servo to the cockpit area.
Just got off the phone with Bill and he recommends mass balancing the rudder and elevator - I should have known!
I have thought about the flying wires. They would be unsightly but effective.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 12:45 PM
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FM,
Congratulations on the maiden ..... and EXTRA congratulations on the save. It is fantastic that you have it back in one piece with only minor repairs to do. Hope you can have it ready for SEFF.
Ed
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 01:57 PM
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It could have ben an udder disastor- I did not say that!!

Instead of flying wires try small diameter carbon rod, brace under the stab ,leading and trailing edge, just inside of where the elevator counter balance is. not visable from above and very effective, also seal the hinge line if you have not already. any flex can start flutter

Dennis
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 06:23 PM
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OK guys got the whole video up this time. I cut out some of it to make it less boring and improve the quality. I've removed the rudder servo and placed it under the cockpit and as expected it moves the no-battery CG forward ~3/8".
By the time I rebuild the tail, it will probably be back where it was.
The larger motor options will move it further forward. Don't know if I want to go to a 5330 on 10S though.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 06:27 PM
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deleted due to ignorance.

tim
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
OK guys got the whole video up this time.
FM,
Need a link ...... One that works .
Thanks,
Ed
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 07:14 PM
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Sorry James, I have not been reading the forums like I used to...

NICE LOOKING HEFFER!!!

Congrats...I would like to see the video...link me up scotty...

Kirby
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 07:38 PM
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Sorry guys here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506477
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 08:59 PM
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FM,
Great maiden. Everything looked fine until the high speed pass.
Fortunate you still had pretty good control after the elevator half departed. Thanks for sharing . Hope to see you both at SEFF.
Ed
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 09:17 PM
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San Antonio, TX
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looks like a real floater. So what's your calculated wing area?
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 09:46 PM
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Looked great to me. Fantastic project.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 09:58 PM
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It's 50% more than the Edge 1.0
It's 990 as I recall.
Here's some pics of an alternate power system.
I was looking for ways to get the CG further forwrd.
I found one. It's called an AXI 5330.

While searching I also find out that a 3S 5,000 or a 3S 3,650 would fit into the motor mount. So I can get my CG without mounting a big honkin motor on the nose.

I'll start the hacking after talking to Bill tomorrow. I expect to replace the horizontal stab and elevators. The new elevators will be balanced.
I may also replace the fin and rudder.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:13 PM
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FM,
I like your idea of the 5330 on 10S .
On the fin and rudder. In the video, I could see the rudder shaking quite a bit when you powered up with it anchored between your legs before takeoff. I would just use some wire bracing to stabilize it.
Ed
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:36 PM
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Only thing is the 5330 and batts would add about 1.5lb to it.
I may try the bracing but I'm leaning toward stripping the covering, and adding ribs and sheet to make it 3 dimensional and stiffer.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:39 PM
Brycycles@7000ft.
Flagstaff, Arizona
Joined Oct 2004
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All right Feather!

I am downloading the video! Thanks for such a GREAT thread of your project. I know it cowsumes alot of time, but I think I can speak for everyone--very well done!
I like the idea of the 5330 on 10s as well. Ok, so not everyone need 300 watts per pound, who am I kidding, we all want that kind of performance. By the way, I am attempting to get a carbon cowl made for another project. A customer works with the stuff for crop dusters. I expressed a desire and he said he might be able to make one. Something about blue core foam...anyway I wll keep you posted.
Bryce
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Old Apr 18, 2006, 10:18 AM
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Bruce,
Both my 72" and 92" Laser 200's are flat horizontal stabs, but they do require flying wires. The Edge should have an airfoiled horizontal and vertical stab and that is why it normally doesn't require flying wires. Since your's is already built, I would just use flying wires. I have used the fine stainless lead-out wire for a control liner ( or pull-pull wire) and run it thru brass tubing glued thru each surface. You lace the wire thru all 4 surfaces and pull it tight then cram a toothpick in the last brass tubing to hold the wire there while you secure it with a brass ferrule ( crimp ). You then go to each brass tubing and cram a toothpick in them and cut it flush and wick thin CA inside to secure. You will then have a rock solid tail section. My Lasers both used this at the leading edge of the stabs and just ahead of the hinge line.

Rick
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Old Apr 18, 2006, 10:38 AM
Scott Stoops
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United States, CO, Longmont
Joined Mar 2002
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The original Edge 540's did have flat surfaces on the tail with flying wires, so it wouldn't be out of place to add them. Fantastic work. I love 1000 squares on only 7.5 pounds!

Scott
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Old Apr 18, 2006, 12:14 PM
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Thanks for the input. On the SA Edge, the vertical and horizontal stab TE's are not lined up at all. In fact the top of the LE of the vertical stab is about in line with the stab TE so a pair of flying wires would look strange. See the 3rd pic on post #255 I could run one wire but that would not help as much. I think the full scale Edge has the TE's lined up making it possible to have 2 parallel sets of flying wires.

Since the TE of the stab is broken at the fuse (both sides) and that large part of the RH ele is broken off, I think I'll just cut the old stab out and start over. I'll be building the new one out of 3/16" (like the old) but adding 1/16 sheet to both sides, I'll just set a strip of 1/16 ply on the stab and then cut along it with a brand new #11 Xacto.
The resulting hole will be the right size for the new stab and should keep the same incidence. I'll use CA hinges this time because they require a smaller cut leaving a stronger TE. I'll also seal the hinge line. I know I know I should have sealed this one but I got lazy. Not again. Finally, I'll add weight to the LE of the elevator aerodynamic balance to balance the surface.
I should also sheet and balance the fin and rudder.
Should still be less than 7.5lb when I'm all done.
If I do move the rudder servo and install pull-pulls I'll have to move the elevator servo up to clear the pull on that side. That will improve the control geometry anyway.
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Old Apr 18, 2006, 12:40 PM
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Since you'll be rebuilding the horizontal stab and elevator, why not laminate some strips of carbon onto it. It wil greatly strengthen the structure for not much cost or weight.
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Old Apr 18, 2006, 11:38 PM
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Why I chose to cut out the old stab.

In the picture below you can see the breaks at weak points. I'm glad I landed OK. The LE is intact and no hinges failed or were pulled out.I could not pull the ply control horn out of the elevator.
The replacement will have smaller notches and CA hinges besides the TE being a little deeper.
The new stab is basically framed from 1/4" and will be sheeted with 1/16" for a total thickness of 3/8". The old one is 3/16 unsheeted. I got some good advice from a couple of engineers and will sheet on the bias (45 deg) to make it stiffer. The sheet will also strengthen the butt joints.
Before I removed the old stab/elevator, I put the rear of the fuse on a scale, zeroed it out and pushed down on the counterbalance until the elevator was level. The scale showed 1.6oz. Similarly the rudder seems to need 1.6oz too as is. So I'll be adding a lot of weight to the tail.
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 09:55 AM
TKG
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Riverton Wy
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Don't think the mass balance on the rudder will do much good. For 1.6 oz you could make it a bunch stiffer. Old trick is to make it slightly thicker than the fin. Does wonders to reduce flutter
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 10:02 AM
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Ths TKG. I've read that. Aerodynamicists seem to agree that making the surfaces stiffer delays the onset of flutter because it increases the natural oscillation frequency of the surface while mass balancing all but eliminates it.
I've been looking at full size Edge pics and have noticed that their control surfaces are a lot smaller and are mass balanced. The older ones have flat, wire braced tails and the newer ones have airfoil shaped tails with no external bracing.
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 01:24 PM
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Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Makes me wonder about the 150% E3D that I have cut out, waiting to assemble.....

I forget what power system you used for the maiden?
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 02:52 PM
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It is an AXI 4130/16, Tanic 6S 5,000 a Castle Phx80 and APCE 16X10
Top speed est ~60(?)
On your E3D you should never fly it that fast. You can mass balance the control surfaces to be sure.


PS Want to sell it?
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
It is an AXI 4130/16, Tanic 6S 5,000 a Castle Phx80 and APCE 16X10
Top speed est ~60(?)
On your E3D you should never fly it that fast. You can mass balance the control surfaces to be sure.

FM,

Can you explain this mass balancing of the control surfaces(how to). I have never heard of this reference in all the years of flying r/c planes. So therefore I have never used this technique. Thanks

Tim
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 03:13 PM
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First if you do a Google search on "mass balancing to prevent flutter" you'll find some great info as well as discussion in RCGroups: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355294

What you are doing is adding weights (lead) to a contrlol surface AHEAD of the hinge line until the surface sits level on its own. The surface must be shaped so that some of it is in front of the hinge line.
Balancing may be difficult to measure if it is on the plane with CA hinges because they are not very flexible. Pinned hinges have almost no friction and so are easier to do. Off the plane, you must support the surface at the hinge line on some kind of a straightedge. Then add weight until it sits level.
The balance impedes the flapping motion caused by the control surface moving and flexing and/or moving the fixed surface in front of it. Building the structure stiffer usually increases the speed at which fkutter happens but mass balancing is more effective. Flutter usually occurs very fast and is usually destructive. You saw/heard it in the video right?

Later the same day of the maiden, a pilot fluttered his 3D ugly stick thing and to my amazement kept flying. Upon landing he announced that it had pulled a hinge loose. Wonder what other damage was done?
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant

Later the same day of the maiden, a pilot fluttered his 3D ugly stick thing and to my amazement kept flying. Upon landing he announced that it had pulled a hinge loose. Wonder what other damage was done?

isn't it illegal to put "3D" in the same paragraph as "Ugly Stick"..?
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 07:41 PM
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You should've seen it.
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
I got some good advice from a couple of engineers and will sheet on the bias (45 deg) to make it stiffer. The sheet will also strengthen the butt joints.
They probably mentioned this, but to get best strengthening in both directions I'd make sure the top sheeting is 45deg one way and the bottom is 45 deg the other way. (So that the grains on the top and bottom are 90 degrees apart).

Just a thought.

Tom
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 08:35 PM
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That's true. My 150% E3D won't be flying too fast. But I fluttered an aileron off my standard size E3D one time. I tried all kinds of stuff over the course of a couple years, including mass balancing, to eliminate the aileron flutter on that E3D. Final solution was to strip the Nelson Litefilm off the ailerons, add diagonal sticks, and recover with Monokote. I've been flying the snot out of it ever since. I now love it so much that wild horses couldn't drag me away from the 150%'er that I have cut and ready to build. If it weren't for the multi-million dollar electric that I've been assembling (and a million other other short projects), I would be all over these 150% E3D sticks.
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 10:17 PM
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Hi FM:

I just watched the video. First, as someone who is very spoiled by flying almost exclusively at electric-only fields, I would say that the soundtrack from your video should be Exhibit A for an argument about how annoying it is to have to listen to a lot of IC engines firing up when you're trying to hear your electric plane! Second, I thought it was very ironic to hear you saying "I'm gonna do just one high speed pass and see what happens." Third, kudos for a fantastic job on the build and also a great job of saving the model after the elevator failure. This is going to be a sensational plane when you get it repaired and flying again. You are a prince among men and a great asset to RC Groups!

Neil
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Old Apr 19, 2006, 11:01 PM
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Boy is it stiff!

Gee Thanks for the kind words Neil. When the elevator part blew off someone said they thought it was only some covering. I had already throttled back and briefly thought it might be some of the 'cowing' but I did not see the damage as I made the pattern to land. It flew really well with no real noticable effect.
The new stab is rough sanded and ready to be carved/sanded to shape. I sheeted it piecemeal instead of trying to figure out how best to use the wood and all first. I started by measuring the 45deg angles and positioning the stab on the 6"X36" 1/16 sheet then glued it from the inside and trimmed off the overhang. Then I butted the rest of the sheet against the piece I just glued on and glued and trimmed it. Finally I glued the seams between the sheets with thin CA. The second side was similar but I used some slower curing CA with some kicker on the sheet so I could put down the glue then position the sheet. I used almost the whole sheet.
It is REALLY stiff but weighs 2.5oz vs the 1.1 of the old one. I will have to move the rudder servo almost for sure as every ounce back there needs ~2.6oz up front to balance. I'm mulling over some ideas for lightening the elevator design. And trying to decide if I'm going to sheet the fin and rudder or not. If so I'll have to move the elevator servo up front as well.
I've also considered some ways to add weight to the nose. I've read that the APC glow pattern props provide more thrust for fewer amps than the electric props. They also weigh ~1.5-2oz more. My spinner is cut for electric props and has a lightened backplate (~1oz). So a new Ultimate spinner would be required. I could also make a longer motor mount and cowl to match. That would be a lot of work but would solve the problem for sure.

BTW while talking o Bill I asked what the incidence should be and he said with the stab level the wings should be -0.5deg. Well the right wing was that and the left was about -0.75! So I made them both close to 0 (that was before I talked to Bill).
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Old Apr 20, 2006, 11:12 PM
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I'm getting better at this.

Man a whole day and no replies. Anyway I built the elevators tonight. Went much faster because I did almost no interlocking due to the planned sheeting. Because of the surprising weight of the new stab, I decided to leave off the carbon fiber (horrors, blasphemy, etc). I am quite happy with the outcome. The one that is sheeted is really stiff and pretty light compared to the old one. Ben from 3dhobbyshop (Blucor Basher) and my dad were right about sheeting at a 45deg angle. I used almost as much sheet on one elevator as on the stab so I think I'll make another stab w/o carbon and see what happens. I'm guessing it will be lots lighter and not quite as stiff.

To get CG on the maiden, I slid my 6S 5,000 pack well into the cowl. I discovered that I can fit 2-3S 5,000 packs in the motor mount which puts all of their 24oz in front of the firewall. I may not have to move any servos.
I'll check that all out once I have the stab and elevator parts built.

Mass balancing - See pics 2 and 3 below.
My method of calculating the amount of lead to put into the elevator is:
Turn on scale, place Tbar and elevator on scale and tare (so it reads 0).
Then use the Tbar as a pivot point and press down on the counter balance near its leading edge until the elevator sits level.
Read the scale and put that much lead into the counterbalance.

Does that sound right?
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathermerchant
First if you do a Google search on "mass balancing to prevent flutter" you'll find some great info as well as discussion in RCGroups: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355294

What you are doing is adding weights (lead) to a contrlol surface AHEAD of the hinge line until the surface sits level on its own. The surface must be shaped so that some of it is in front of the hinge line.
Balancing may be difficult to measure if it is on the plane with CA hinges because they are not very flexible. Pinned hinges have almost no friction and so are easier to do. Off the plane, you must support the surface at the hinge line on some kind of a straightedge. Then add weight until it sits level.
The balance impedes the flapping motion caused by the control surface moving and flexing and/or moving the fixed surface in front of it. Building the structure stiffer usually increases the speed at which fkutter happens but mass balancing is more effective. Flutter usually occurs very fast and is usually destructive. You saw/heard it in the video right?

Later the same day of the maiden, a pilot fluttered his 3D ugly stick thing and to my amazement kept flying. Upon landing he announced that it had pulled a hinge loose. Wonder what other damage was done?
Thank you sir! Appreciate the thread link and your explanation on this. Yes I did see the flutter and the counter balance on your elevator fly off.

Tim
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