Newest Gen Li Io round cells in our helis?

Albig · Dec 23, 2005, 06:46 PM

As the Lithium Express continues full tilt the next generation chemistry is almost here.

I just got some of the new Milwaukee Cordless V28 power tools.

Being insatiably curious I had to open a pack to see what these cells look like which will in all likelihood take over the RC market over the next few years.

Here's some pictures of the actual opened pack.

I'm not going to disassemble it any further as it would become unusable for it's intended purpose which in this case is what it's designed for, tools.

Dear Mr. Moderator I implore you to please not move this thread to the batteries and chargers forum where it can be dissected, inspected, rejected never to be resurrected because I'm only interested in heli applicability for this new technology, and what we can put these things in.

What heli could you run on 7S as it is because it's quite obvious that the cells are all under the watchful eye of some monitoring IC. And as of yet I have no idea how one would charge them without the factory charger.

The 7 cells plus their "rack" and control circuitry weighs about 750G. As Gary mentioned in the other thread that the cells weigh 100g. I'm pretty sure they're a little less than that, maybe more like 90. The fully potted control unit / rack with large heatsink and current straps weighs more than 50G I'm sure. 100 to 150 would be more like it.

The pack sits at precisely 28V at rest with what the monitors shows to be approx 75% charge. So I'm guessing they are probably very close in voltage to lithium polymers per cell. It's my belief that's truly what they are, spiral wound lithium phosphate polymers.

I can tell you this much, the tools system they came with has power beyond anything I expected and so far even extreme use has not triggered any pack shutdowns or very much pack heat either. There no doubt they have the power to fly anything we play with.

I've got a NIB older version Logo 10 sitting here that might make a good test platform just for giggles. Where's my box of motors

rerazor · Dec 23, 2005, 06:49 PM

How much is a replacement pack for the "power tools"?

Edit:48-11-2830 V28 Battery (2 Year Warranty) Product Details $137.50

What size Mah are these?

Albig · Dec 23, 2005, 06:50 PM

I think even better yet is my Raptor with the 1912 1Y I have here.

Albig · Dec 23, 2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rerazor

How much is a replacement pack for the "power tools"?

I've seen them for $125 with free shipping on the internet.

The Makita 5 cell pack can be bought for under 75 bucks if you buy 2 @ a time.

3000mah.

Al

rerazor · Dec 23, 2005, 06:59 PM

I also think you need to hook up a watts up/eagle tree when your cutting the forest down to monitor the voltage/amp etc.......

DavidB. · Dec 23, 2005, 07:30 PM

Al, I think for RC use it would be awesome to remove the cell monitor and connect it permanantly to the charger. Then solder on a proper balance connector so every time you charge the pack it's balanced at the same time.

I think the swift would fly fine on 7cells. I'm really not after HUGE power but instead worry free fun flying. This may be the closest thing we have right now. The other option is to go with 2 of the makita packs for a 10s setup. That may get a little heavy for the Swift and prolly wouldn't have enough runtime for a 50 size. Anyone have ideas on how we can keep all the safety features but with the ability to vary cell counts? It'd be nice to go 6s or 8s as well as the stock 7s/5s packs.

SBK Formosa · Dec 23, 2005, 07:47 PM

In early November, the Wall Street Journal had this article about these new high voltage lipo's:
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...zgyODM4Wj.html

This link can be openned only in the next seven days for the non-subscribers.

Albig · Dec 23, 2005, 08:02 PM

Yep,

Those are the cells I'm really waiting for but these will be fun to play with in the meantime. I'm going to see what they've got.

The A123s should be similar sized but without the need for monitoring circuitry and they can be charged about as fast as you can pour the current on.

Al

misskimo · Dec 23, 2005, 08:14 PM

Dewalt , YEH , my work will get a pile of theses new packs , Ill just borrow them at the remote work site he he

misskimo · Dec 23, 2005, 08:33 PM

got the Vstabi coming , but I havent figured out which one to put it on yet , logo 30 , 3D-nt or the Ion , looseing the whole flybar and linkages will make up the difference in the plastic dewalt case

GGoodrum · Dec 23, 2005, 09:13 PM

Yep, these look like they might work fine. With the current you can pull out of them, they must have really low dynamic IRs. What that means for us is less bogging. The trick is going to be how to setup something to take advantage of that without pulling too much current out so we can still get decent durations. One thing I noticed about the Pro Lite 2100 cells, when they came out, was that the durations went up. A look at the FDR charts showed why. The voltage stayed up higher, under load, so it wasn't using as much current to do the same work. I suspect we might see the same thing happen with these, We might end up with an "effective" mAh increase over what we might expect to see with our "normal" LiPos. In other words, the durations might be like something we would get with a LiPo pack with higher than 3000 mAh.

Another thought I had about Al's 28V Milwaukee packs is that a lot of the circuitry in there might be related to the "gas gauge". We'll see what's iin the Makita pack, once I get that Torx tool thingy Al mentioned.

In any case, I think you could probaly run a Swift on one of the Makita 5-cell packs, sans the heavy packaging, a Swift or a Logo 14 with 550-570 blades on one of the 7-cell packs, a Raptor on two of the 5-cell packs and maybe an Ion/UEVO on one of each?

This should keep us all busy for a while...

-- Gary

CWallace · Dec 23, 2005, 09:45 PM

Gary, I found it amusing that you've never come across Torx before!?! I guess I'm too much of a tool nerd and....like a little kid....I just have to take things apart.....ESPECIALLY if the are working just fine!

Anyway...
Keep disecting this stuff....It looks like a path to our future fun...and is pretty cool too!

I won't mind if ithis technology obsoletes my Lipo inventory for something better and safer.

Cw

Geezzz,,,And I'm getting my TP1010 in a few days (not to long ago I remember taking camcorder batts apart to use in micro stuff)

rerazor · Dec 23, 2005, 09:46 PM

I don't understand are these all 2p's (5s2p etc..)?

Hugeone · Dec 23, 2005, 09:55 PM

It will be nice if they put the A123 technology into prismatic form just like ordinary lipo, you'll save weight and space this way...

DavidB. · Dec 23, 2005, 10:06 PM

WOW, this is getting good. 3 more cells than the Milwaulkee, same great price. A 10s1p 3000mah pack for $129!!!!!

http://www.toolsforless.com/product/7364.html

Oh, if you don't have the charger either. It might make more sense to purchase the whole drill kit for $299. You get a drill and carrying case for only $50 more.

http://www.toolup.com/productinfo_fr...AdCamp=Froogle

Dec 23, 2005, 06:46 PM	#1
Albig Das Universus Elektrikus Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NM, USA Posts: 3,309	Newest Gen Li Io round cells in our helis? As the Lithium Express continues full tilt the next generation chemistry is almost here. I just got some of the new Milwaukee Cordless V28 power tools. Being insatiably curious I had to open a pack to see what these cells look like which will in all likelihood take over the RC market over the next few years. Here's some pictures of the actual opened pack. I'm not going to disassemble it any further as it would become unusable for it's intended purpose which in this case is what it's designed for, tools. Dear Mr. Moderator I implore you to please not move this thread to the batteries and chargers forum where it can be dissected, inspected, rejected never to be resurrected because I'm only interested in heli applicability for this new technology, and what we can put these things in. What heli could you run on 7S as it is because it's quite obvious that the cells are all under the watchful eye of some monitoring IC. And as of yet I have no idea how one would charge them without the factory charger. The 7 cells plus their "rack" and control circuitry weighs about 750G. As Gary mentioned in the other thread that the cells weigh 100g. I'm pretty sure they're a little less than that, maybe more like 90. The fully potted control unit / rack with large heatsink and current straps weighs more than 50G I'm sure. 100 to 150 would be more like it. The pack sits at precisely 28V at rest with what the monitors shows to be approx 75% charge. So I'm guessing they are probably very close in voltage to lithium polymers per cell. It's my belief that's truly what they are, spiral wound lithium phosphate polymers. I can tell you this much, the tools system they came with has power beyond anything I expected and so far even extreme use has not triggered any pack shutdowns or very much pack heat either. There no doubt they have the power to fly anything we play with. I've got a NIB older version Logo 10 sitting here that might make a good test platform just for giggles. Where's my box of motors Attached Thumbnails Opened pack with all monitoring circuitry. 55.7 KB · Views: 4081 Cells are approx 26.5mms x 70mms and weigh approx 90 to 100gs each. 49.1 KB · Views: 1655 Last edited by Albig; Dec 23, 2005 at 06:58 PM.

Dec 23, 2005, 09:45 PM	#12
CWallace Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 373	Torx,,, Gary, I found it amusing that you've never come across Torx before!?! I guess I'm too much of a tool nerd and....like a little kid....I just have to take things apart.....ESPECIALLY if the are working just fine! Anyway... Keep disecting this stuff....It looks like a path to our future fun...and is pretty cool too! I won't mind if ithis technology obsoletes my Lipo inventory for something better and safer. Cw Geezzz,,,And I'm getting my TP1010 in a few days (not to long ago I remember taking camcorder batts apart to use in micro stuff)

Dec 23, 2005, 10:06 PM	#15
DavidB. X-Era Motors Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Newport, NC Posts: 2,189	WOW, this is getting good. 3 more cells than the Milwaulkee, same great price. A 10s1p 3000mah pack for $129!!!!! http://www.toolsforless.com/product/7364.html Oh, if you don't have the charger either. It might make more sense to purchase the whole drill kit for $299. You get a drill and carrying case for only $50 more. http://www.toolup.com/productinfo_fr...AdCamp=Froogle Last edited by DavidB.; Dec 23, 2005 at 10:19 PM.

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Dec 23, 2005, 06:49 PM	#2
rerazor Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Michigan, United States Posts: 2,416	How much is a replacement pack for the "power tools"? Edit:48-11-2830 V28 Battery (2 Year Warranty) Product Details $137.50 What size Mah are these?

Dec 23, 2005, 06:50 PM	#3
Albig Das Universus Elektrikus Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NM, USA Posts: 3,309	I think even better yet is my Raptor with the 1912 1Y I have here.

Dec 23, 2005, 06:59 PM	#5
rerazor Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Michigan, United States Posts: 2,416	I also think you need to hook up a watts up/eagle tree when your cutting the forest down to monitor the voltage/amp etc.......

Dec 23, 2005, 07:30 PM	#6
DavidB. X-Era Motors Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Newport, NC Posts: 2,189	Al, I think for RC use it would be awesome to remove the cell monitor and connect it permanantly to the charger. Then solder on a proper balance connector so every time you charge the pack it's balanced at the same time. I think the swift would fly fine on 7cells. I'm really not after HUGE power but instead worry free fun flying. This may be the closest thing we have right now. The other option is to go with 2 of the makita packs for a 10s setup. That may get a little heavy for the Swift and prolly wouldn't have enough runtime for a 50 size. Anyone have ideas on how we can keep all the safety features but with the ability to vary cell counts? It'd be nice to go 6s or 8s as well as the stock 7s/5s packs.

Dec 23, 2005, 07:47 PM	#7
SBK Formosa Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NE OHIO Posts: 239	In early November, the Wall Street Journal had this article about these new high voltage lipo's: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...zgyODM4Wj.html This link can be openned only in the next seven days for the non-subscribers.

Dec 23, 2005, 08:02 PM	#8
Albig Das Universus Elektrikus Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NM, USA Posts: 3,309	Yep, Those are the cells I'm really waiting for but these will be fun to play with in the meantime. I'm going to see what they've got. The A123s should be similar sized but without the need for monitoring circuitry and they can be charged about as fast as you can pour the current on. Al

Dec 23, 2005, 08:14 PM	#9
misskimo TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12 Posts: 7,414	Dewalt , YEH , my work will get a pile of theses new packs , Ill just borrow them at the remote work site he he

Dec 23, 2005, 08:33 PM	#10
misskimo TeamTP,Minicopter,Spartan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12 Posts: 7,414	got the Vstabi coming , but I havent figured out which one to put it on yet , logo 30 , 3D-nt or the Ion , looseing the whole flybar and linkages will make up the difference in the plastic dewalt case

Dec 23, 2005, 09:13 PM	#11
GGoodrum www.tppacks.com Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Orange County, CA Posts: 5,578	Yep, these look like they might work fine. With the current you can pull out of them, they must have really low dynamic IRs. What that means for us is less bogging. The trick is going to be how to setup something to take advantage of that without pulling too much current out so we can still get decent durations. One thing I noticed about the Pro Lite 2100 cells, when they came out, was that the durations went up. A look at the FDR charts showed why. The voltage stayed up higher, under load, so it wasn't using as much current to do the same work. I suspect we might see the same thing happen with these, We might end up with an "effective" mAh increase over what we might expect to see with our "normal" LiPos. In other words, the durations might be like something we would get with a LiPo pack with higher than 3000 mAh. Another thought I had about Al's 28V Milwaukee packs is that a lot of the circuitry in there might be related to the "gas gauge". We'll see what's iin the Makita pack, once I get that Torx tool thingy Al mentioned. In any case, I think you could probaly run a Swift on one of the Makita 5-cell packs, sans the heavy packaging, a Swift or a Logo 14 with 550-570 blades on one of the 7-cell packs, a Raptor on two of the 5-cell packs and maybe an Ion/UEVO on one of each? This should keep us all busy for a while... -- Gary

Dec 23, 2005, 09:46 PM	#13
rerazor Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Michigan, United States Posts: 2,416	I don't understand are these all 2p's (5s2p etc..)?

Dec 23, 2005, 09:55 PM	#14
Hugeone Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Canada,Quebec Posts: 606	It will be nice if they put the A123 technology into prismatic form just like ordinary lipo, you'll save weight and space this way...