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Old Nov 29, 2005, 08:06 PM
I'd rather be Flying
davecee's Avatar
Nashville, NC, USA
Joined Mar 1999
2,809 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniderea
This assumes everyone that buys the 109 should know better. I have 3 lipos and while I've read the warnings that go with them, there's warnings on about everything around us. My can of Dust-Off has more bold red warnings than lipos or their chargers. Unless buying the charger comes with some manditory safety class, people who don't know better will be using it.
I think you're missing my point. Of course I wouldn't expect anyone to have innate knowledge of how to operate such a device with no previous experience or education in how to do so. Of course such a person "doesn't know better" and that's no shame. My point is that the proper way to operate the device is included with it. A person who then misuses the device because he did not, for some reason, read the manual is the ONLY one responsible for any adverse consequences. There is shame in that. As I said before, a person who then makes the same mistake more than once has shown us something about himself that perhaps he would have rather not shown.
Your comment about warnings on everything seems to imply that that's lisence to not pay attention to any such warnings, or at least a reason to excuse the actions of the person who did not pay attention. You can't protect people from their own foolishness. It's impossible to make any device "foolproof".
I'm afraid that all the folks I see on this forum blaming the equipment when it's obvious that most did not even read the manual, let alone follow the proper procedure outlined there, is just business as usual in the USA today.
It seems that any thing bad that happens must be the fault of someone or something else, other than the individual involved. Personal responsibility as a virtue has disappeared. I imagine that most of the guys kvetching about this "dangerous" charger would try to avoid their responsibility in other more importent aspects of life, and that is truely sad. Be a man, "cowboy up" and admit you made a mistake, learn from it and go on with your life. Hopefuly this kind of attitude some of you are exposing will not lead to worse problems in your lives in the future. I wish you all the best.
Dave
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 09:07 PM
resU deretsigeR
PaulVi's Avatar
Dublin Ca
Joined Aug 2004
7,787 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by no stick
Errrrr, wouldn't it be better to have user verification of the "autodetect" cell count before starting the charge? Changing the cell count after starting the charge is like setting the "stupid" switch and I'm the only one qualified to set the "stupid" switch.

Ed
Ahhh who cares as long as it can not automaticly selct the wrong count and continue charging. wheater or not i set the current to zero before I start..

I bought the charger i am comfortable with and it serves me well but i am sure others will say it has simualr problems.. Like me forgetting to change cell count before starting..

What i would like to see is the best of both worlds..

I set it to 3 the charger see's 2 it warns me.. Makes sence right.

We are looking to auto cell detect as a way to simplify life. other wise we would all he do it the WOO way..

There is no bad charge just bad users...


2 blown lipos and counting (both My Fault)
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 09:46 PM
Registered User
Los Angeles
Joined Oct 2002
573 Posts
dear Klique
in answer to your question about the fault message.
the fault indicates that for some reason the terminal voltage at the
charger has exceeded a value of 4.3 volts per cell based on the
cell count that is frozen at the end of phase 1.
this can happen for a number of reasons and does not indicate that
there is anything wrong with the charger.
1. if long wires are added between charger and battery the voltage
drop in the cables adds to the apparent battery voltage and trips
out the charger. this usually occurs in phase 3. nothing is wrong
but the battery is not quite fully charged maybe only 98%
the cure is easy just reduce the charging rate to 0.7 or 0.8C
2. one or more cells has a higher than normal resistance to charge.
this is especially true of damaged cells , cell that have been discharged
too low or too long at high dischage rates. Damaged cells go out of
balance and are the primary cause of failure, puffing and yes fire.
3. Luckily many lipo mfg after 4 years of battery problems have finally
added taps to their packs. They added packs because they finally understand
that packs with damaged cells or packs way out of balance are more prone
to failure.
4. add a balancer to your tool box and don't be in such a rush
when charging. haste makes waste
qui va piano va sano
qui va sano va longtano
astrobob
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 10:26 PM
Registered User
Cedar Rapids, IA
Joined Mar 2005
327 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by davecee
I think you're missing my point. Of course I wouldn't expect anyone to have innate knowledge of how to operate such a device with no previous experience or education in how to do so. Of course such a person "doesn't know better" and that's no shame. My point is that the proper way to operate the device is included with it. A person who then misuses the device because he did not, for some reason, read the manual is the ONLY one responsible for any adverse consequences. There is shame in that. As I said before, a person who then makes the same mistake more than once has shown us something about himself that perhaps he would have rather not shown.
Your comment about warnings on everything seems to imply that that's lisence to not pay attention to any such warnings, or at least a reason to excuse the actions of the person who did not pay attention. You can't protect people from their own foolishness. It's impossible to make any device "foolproof".
I'm afraid that all the folks I see on this forum blaming the equipment when it's obvious that most did not even read the manual, let alone follow the proper procedure outlined there, is just business as usual in the USA today.
It seems that any thing bad that happens must be the fault of someone or something else, other than the individual involved. Personal responsibility as a virtue has disappeared. I imagine that most of the guys kvetching about this "dangerous" charger would try to avoid their responsibility in other more importent aspects of life, and that is truely sad. Be a man, "cowboy up" and admit you made a mistake, learn from it and go on with your life. Hopefuly this kind of attitude some of you are exposing will not lead to worse problems in your lives in the future. I wish you all the best.
Dave
I understand you point. In our sue happy society, everything bad is someone else's fault and one doesn't have to take responsibility for any fault. The fact is very few people will read manuals or the precautions you can find on about everything in the home. We see so many warnings, they're taken for granted. It's not a good thing, but it happens. Charging lipos has some risk. If the charger can be designed to minimize some risks all the better as the average user won't read/follow directions every time.
I know I'd feel pretty bad if I wrote software for some critical system and by a user not following the official procedure there was some loss of life. Who cares who's fault it was it's still a tragedy.
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 10:26 PM
Mum is the word!
Joined Jun 2003
6,785 Posts
To clear things up while ev one persumes fault.I still dont know why they blew all i ever saw was fault on the display after.I use the rite procedure.I have used the 109 for over a year and a half,and never had a stitch of problem untill i got the new charger...That is why I was inquiring about 109 and lipo fires.
Thnx bob for clearing up the fault .after the first fire i did lengthen the leads by 2 feet.I will re doit with a heavier gague.It usualy shows fault only when my 2 s pax are charging.
Ck
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 10:53 PM
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Los Angeles
Joined Oct 2002
573 Posts
Klique
if you suspect that one of your chargers is not quite right.
again let me suggest that you send it in for inspection.
that way we can test it to see how it behaves on some of
my packs. I have apogee, thunder power, poly quest and kokam packs
astrobob
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 11:15 PM
Mum is the word!
Joined Jun 2003
6,785 Posts
I will bob Here soon ,I was gona take it to the hobby shop to see if they would replace it, but i will keep a close eye on it for a few days as it goes through its cycles.If i see anything funky i will send it to you.Maybe both of them. And a few motors.Thnx bob.
Ck
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 12:30 AM
resU deretsigeR
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Dublin Ca
Joined Aug 2004
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Thanks again Bob for working through all the garbage mine included to help out Ck it is a gem when you find vendor that take th time to follow up..
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 06:54 AM
Registered User
Ohio
Joined May 2003
2,083 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer
That is what happens while the charge is set to zero, if the instructions are followed, is it not?.
Some chargers blink X number of times to indicate the number of cells ,the 109 dispalys the number of cell detected at all times,which to me is much better than a one time indicator.
Charles
Don't know. I use the Orbit charger. I set the charge rate (1C), verify the "autodetect" cell count displayed and forget it. The charger will not continue until I verify the cell count through user intervention. If the cell count is wrong the charger has had a problem detecting the correct voltage. I unplug the battery and start over. Never had a problem.

NO CHARGER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE CELL COUNT AT ANY TIME.

Ed
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Last edited by no stick; Nov 30, 2005 at 10:58 AM.
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 07:46 AM
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United States, IN, Evansville
Joined May 2001
1,765 Posts
Would someone start a poll about this? Two questions:

My astro 109 has burnt a Lithium Battery.
My astro 109 has NOT burnt a Lithium Battery.
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 07:54 AM
**I'm Battman**
RCBABBEL's Avatar
Twin Falls, Idaho
Joined Jan 2005
8,572 Posts
Yes Ed,

"NO CHARGER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE CELL COUNT AT ANY TIME."

Amen
rc
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 07:58 AM
Suspended Account
USA, FL, Apopka
Joined Dec 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCBABBEL
Yes Ed,

"NO CHARGER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE CELL COUNT AT ANY TIME."

Amen
rc
And that reply shows a TOTAL IGNORANCE of the issues regarding how to charge high cell count series Lipo packs.

Not everyone flys only 2S and 3S packs.

Brad
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 08:02 AM
**I'm Battman**
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Twin Falls, Idaho
Joined Jan 2005
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Quote...

Red Scholefield
The Battery Clinic




Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Newberry, FL USA
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Dave
I hate to say it but how come I read so many of these
stories that have to do with the Astro 109 charger?



It has been demonstrated that the Astro 109 can skip a cell count, giving you a count of 3 when it is actually a two cell pack. Charging a two cell pack as a 3 cell pack can lead to disasterous results. The conditions to cause this are present anytime you charge a partially discharged pack and the current setting is turned up to some degree.

Red S.
The RC Battery Clinic
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 08:04 AM
**I'm Battman**
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Twin Falls, Idaho
Joined Jan 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjpaul
And that reply shows a TOTAL IGNORANCE of the issues regarding how to charge high cell count series Lipo packs.

Not everyone flys only 2S and 3S packs.

Brad
Lets talk about those of us that DO fly all 3 cell packs.

rc
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 08:12 AM
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Charles has given you the solution multiple times, just follow it.

Brad
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