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Old Nov 28, 2005, 11:30 PM
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What does it mean when the charger says fault at the end of the charge.It doesnt say in the maual.Or I didnt seem to find it.It sems to charge and stop but insted of saying done it says fault.Both my chargers do it on new and old lipo's they dont seem to have a pattern except it started when the weather cooled off.
Ck
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Old Nov 28, 2005, 11:32 PM
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Los Angeles
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KLIQUE
a few comments on your problem
1. If you suspect that one of your chargers is faulty then let me suggest
that you send in to me at astro and let me test it an fix it if need be.
2. if your software is prior to v 1.5 i will update it for you.
3. the charger NEVER skips counts or anything else. it measures battery
terminal volatage and declares a cell count based on measured voltage.
the charger is set to declare 3 cells for any voltage less than 12.9 volts
and more than 8.6 volts. if at any time after mode 1 the voltage of
a fully charged 3 cell pack exceeded 12.9 v the charging would stop
at once and beep 9 times and show a 3c2 or 3c3 fault.
4. the charger is not automatic and requires the operator to give his or
her vote of confidence by turning up the amps and leaving them at 1C
5. the proper procedure is to ALWAYS start with current at zero amps.
then after waiting a few seconds for the voltage display to stabilze
read your battery voltage. on 3 cells if 10.5 volts or more you
should be able to charge at a 1 c rate if the pack is balanced and
in good condition. to find out slowly increase amps and observe the
voltage increase it should be no more than 0.2 v and even much less
a large jump in votage means an unbalanced pack with a low cell
or a damaged cell.
if the pack is almost fully charged and you read 12.3 to 12.6 volts
it does not need to be charged any more. If you insist on "peaking"
then do it at c/3 or c/4. not 1C
we provided a voltmeter indication for your information so
please use it.
6, you did not say how long the charger was charging
before the fire. If only a few minutes then it is very unlikely
that the whole pack was over charged. more likely one cell.
7. now that many cell mfg have seen the wisdom of adding
voltage taps one can measure individual cell voltages and
use a balancer like our blinky or any other to check cell
balance.
8. we designed the 109 as a lithium only charger because we
felt that multifunction chargers were too easy to be misused.
9. If you have any suggestions for improvements of any of
our products such suggestions should be made directly to
astro flight at Info@ astroflight.com or directly to me
at astrobob@astroflight.com
astrobob
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 12:14 AM
Mum is the word!
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Bob thnx for stepin in.
I will closely watch these chargers for the next few days.I will use my ballancers.I will let you know.
Imho On the 109 it should should still have a screen where we can acknowlage the cell count.And a yes to procede button to let it finish charging.
How hard is that.It could save alot of grief possibly.It is a simple design to make it safer than the multi chargers. I bought your charger for those reasons. To be more safe with less options.What does fault mean?
ck
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klique
Bob thnx for stepin in.
I will closely watch these chargers for the next few days.I will use my ballancers.I will let you know.
Imho On the 109 it should should still have a screen where we can acknowlage the cell count.And a yes to procede button to let it finish charging.
How hard is that.It could save alot of grief possibly.It is a simple design to make it safer than the multi chargers. I bought your charger for those reasons. To be more safe with less options.What does fault mean?
ck
"that depends on what the meaning of is...is....."
- President William Jefferson Clinton

Seriously.......

from Astrobobs reply.

"3. the charger NEVER skips counts or anything else. it measures battery
terminal volatage and declares a cell count based on measured voltage.
the charger is set to declare 3 cells for any voltage less than 12.9 volts
and more than 8.6 volts. if at any time after mode 1 the voltage of
a fully charged 3 cell pack exceeded 12.9 v the charging would stop
at once and beep 9 times and show a 3c2 or 3c3 fault.
"

Brad
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 08:39 AM
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Recall time?

How many fires does it take for a product to be recalled?
Good luck Astrobob on this one. I'm guessing that time is not on your side.

rc
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 08:44 AM
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I like the techniques of autodetecting the cell count - but ONLY in case that the user is required to set or at least confirm the cell count, and mentioned autodetecting will then assure that this setting is correct.
In case the cell count seems to the charger being different, anytime from any reason, the only acceptable charger action is immediately stop the charge and screem in panic.
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCBABBEL
How many fires does it take for a product to be recalled?
Good luck Astrobob on this one. I'm guessing that time is not on your side.

rc
Nah.... by US practice all Astrobob has to do is put a "Warning Label" on the front of the charger:

"WARNING charging already charged Lipo batterypacks may cause a failure and possible fire.... use this charger only as as instructed in the manual"

Brad
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCBABBEL
How many fires does it take for a product to be recalled?
Good luck Astrobob on this one. I'm guessing that time is not on your side.

rc
If it wasn't demonstrably the product's fault, then no recall is in order. Specific instructions for use, accompanied by written warnings against abuse/misuse are all that's necessary. You can't make any electrical device 100% foolproof, because a determined fool can be pretty clever at defeating safeguards.

Using your logic, kerosene space heaters would have been recalled or banned long ago for causing house fires or carbon monoxide poisoning deaths.

Rick
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermperez
During the C1 stage the 109 is testing to see if all the cells are ok (pulsing the current on and off and seeing what the voltage does), if it thinks the pack has a different cell count from what you know it has then you better investigate what is going on.. perhaps one of the cells is bad, or the pack is fully charged or a connection is bad ect.

The only thing I would change is that the charger stops at the c1-c2 transition, but that would mean a hardware change to add a pushbutton, start reset ect. Also a power supply failure during dischage will ruin a pack.

Herm
I think that the charger should only stop the charge if there is a change in the cell count. If it always stopped on the C1 to C2 transition, people would get into the habit of just pressing the button without looking. They should know that something has changed.

Bob
If it's necessary to turn the current down to zero at the beginning of the charge to operate this charger safely, then why don't you enforce that in firmware. The charger does not decide cell count based on terminal voltage when the pack is connected, it decides cell count based on terminal voltage after a 3 minute uncontrolled charge.

Is there a particular reason that you don't want to stop the charge and alert the user when the cell count changes in C1? That change would have prevented 4 fires just among the people I fly with.

Dan
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 11:22 AM
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I Don't Have Any Problems Turning the Current Down

Before hooking up to the AF 109, like I don't drive 80 mph to a RED stop light

WARNING: Incompoops should not be using this Astro Flight 109 Charger/Discharger

is the proper label for this sophisticated PRO charger equipment.

I recalled one EZONER had trouble setting it for a 10 hour SLOW CHARGE
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 12:00 PM
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In Astro Bobs defence.. Not that he needs defending. The product is good.. As a mater of fact i have learned alot about it just in this thread alon. so this may be a case where rehasing data is a good thing..

If there were a wish list then the only option that looks like it would make it a better product is for it to stop on a cell count change and wait for user intervention.. Of cource it is if you have your charge current set to 0 then you would at some tpoint need to intervine and turn up the current and you should see that it hs changed..

That is the theroy of operation that i gather from the thread..

That works for me but Some one else may get burned by that..

So AstroBob have a look at the device im sure your not against making a better product or a good product better.. Your users are speaking and looking at a better way..


Bob thanks for taking the time to respond to the thread that at least shows you are listening..

Paul V
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hall woo
Before hooking up to the AF 109, like I don't drive 80 mph to a RED stop light

WARNING: Incompoops should not be using this Astro Flight 109 Charger/Discharger

is the proper label for this sophisticated PRO charger equipment.

I recalled one EZONER had trouble setting it for a 10 hour SLOW CHARGE
All ezoners have trouble setting the stock Astro 109 for a 10 hour SLOW CHARGE. The charger times out in stage 2 after 1 hour. Bob has made a chip available that extends that timeout.

Incompoops? Must be a technical term I'm not familiar with.

Dan
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 12:12 PM
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Dan

I'm quite sure U did'nt have that problem.

The $129.99 price tag should have discriminated most DILLATANTEs from getting their hands on this AF 109 precision gear.

Maybe , Bob should have solded for $229 like a Schulze
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hall woo
Dan

I'm quite sure U did'nt have that problem.

The $129.99 price tag should have discriminated most DILLATANTEs from getting their hands on this AF 109 precision gear.

Maybe , Bob should have solded for $229 like a Schulze
Quite right Hall. I should have written "Any ezoner attempting to set the stock Astro 109 for a 10 hour SLOW CHARGE would have trouble". Not all ezoners have attempted that feat. No, I haven't.

Although I won't contest my DILETTANTE status (I fly nothing larger than 3S1P), the $129.99 price was not what kept me from buying the Astro 109. I payed a similar amount for a charger that will charge 4 (or more if charged in parallel) of my packs at once.

Dan
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Old Nov 29, 2005, 01:02 PM
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Dan

What we need is a book for " DUMMIES Using LIPO Batteries " main topics CONSTANT CURRENT charging and CONSTANT VOLTAGE charging required for charging LIPOs.

And, of course a topic, why use a VOLTAGE CLAMP ?

Any questions on a proper charger should never arise unless U R a complete IDIOT or FOOL, like asking yourself should I buy a BMW or Mercedes when U could afford both
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