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Old Oct 15, 2008, 11:39 AM
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"Cutting Edge" Decals makes a set of decals for the F-86 Sabre Skyblazers, these could be scanned too and scaled to suit the model size,

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Old Oct 16, 2008, 08:28 AM
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Thanks again Herb I will check it out.
Mahir
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Old Nov 08, 2008, 04:25 AM
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Wemotec

Hi Herb,

Hope you are still around, I managed to contact Oliver at Wemotec and he offered me two versions of the HW 620.

1st is the fan in a tube with either 170 or 200 mm length, or a complete one with two formers , intake and nozzle. Can you tell me which one I need.

Mahir
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Old Nov 08, 2008, 12:22 PM
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I believe the HW-620 fan I used was the base version - no intake plastic cup.

I would go with the shorter 17cm one, that's plenty of length for the Sabre.

The two thin ply formers you see in the picture below could be useful for mounting the fan though, otherwise it just comes with a carbon shroud.

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Old Nov 09, 2008, 01:52 PM
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Thanks once again, will let you know how it proceeds once I collect all the parts, the fan is coming from Germany and the motor esc from Singapore. Heh , and the model is being assembled in Pakistan.

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Old Nov 09, 2008, 01:56 PM
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Singaporan motors eh !
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Just converted my f-86 to electric, as the gas motor was cutting out on me, im actually using a 55mm fan (very small) but, it gives roughly the same power to weight ratio with an 11.1 2100, as the gas did, but the whole setup is much lighter. Im about to go fly it (found this thread while looking for cg setups). Oh, and Herb, looked at your pictures, AMAZINGLY well done plane, but, I saw no cone on the back of your motor in the ducted fan... thats throwing away 10% of your energy, and losing a LOT of your thrust.
Anyway, Ill post results in a few (or crash pics
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:28 PM
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thats a big model for a 55mm fan. how many watts are you making?
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJR13
... I'm actually using a 55mm fan (very small) but, it gives roughly the same power to weight ratio ...
That fan is way too small. You need a 75mm-85mm fan in it to fly it decently.
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJR13
... no cone on the back of your motor in the ducted fan... ...
For obvious reasons : motor cooling.

The decrease in thrust is minimal, about 1-2%, the effects were measured systematically by WeMoTec years ago...

I still fly it almost every weekend, 4.7 lbs with springair retracts rtf. , 3+ years of flying

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Old Feb 02, 2009, 11:59 PM
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With an extended, clean pipe, the losses should be significant, as at such reynolds numbers, you will destroy the laminar flow with the vacuum created by the motor. Perhaps the air is so dirty anyway that it makes no difference. Cooling holes might be a better soultion =/. But as with all things aerospace, you have to test it, as there are too many variables to use theories.
As for the fan, yeah obviously too small, but I vowed not to spend more money on model planes (I waste it on real ones now) and its all I had lying around. It flew, but barely. Not enough to keep. But still, it looked very cool and sounded GREAT on the ground. (Clean, crisp, quiet, engine sound) : )
Damn, I am going to end up buying a 75-85mm now, arent I. I hate you all. This hobby should be seriously regulated due to its similarities to narcotics. Its people like you that keep me poor. *cries* Happy, but poor.
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 12:00 AM
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a high power 70mm would do the job. a nice 1500W would fly it nicely.
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJR13
... you have to test it, as there are too many variables to use theories....
It was tested in the fan I am using. Please read my previous post ...
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 12:44 AM
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i think keeping the motor cooled is far more inportant than the minmal losses. ive experimented with this, and i could tell the differance in flight. and knowing my motor is cool, in some cases, motors that cost almost 200 bucks...is worth the loss.
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 04:02 PM
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I guess, I just can't figure out why it doesnt make too much of a difference. Yes, a 1500W setup would be lovely, Ill have to work on it. I have 2 11.1 2100s and 2 11.1 1800s lying around, they are all 20C. Do you think that throwing those in parallel to have a 4400 and a 3600 would be alright for a nice f-86 setup setup? I really dont want to have to buy more lipos Also, if you guys could recommend a very low cost fan and motor that I could throw in there (Im not too picky about performance), I'd appreciate it.
And yeah, motor cooling is a big deal, as it slowly destroys motor performance in the long run (curie), but more importantly, the heat increases the motor's resistance, dropping power output in the short term. For now, my little 34" flying wing is keeping me damn happy
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJR13
...Yes, a 1500W setup would be lovely ...
Yes, that is what I have in mine (see posted video of 4 years ago).


Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJR13
... recommend a very low cost fan and motor ...
"Low cost" and "good flying edf" don't mix well ...

For fan you need a 75mm to 90mm (absolute max). I suppose you have no ducting, so perhaps 90mm will be best. Mine is 85mm WeMoTec HW-620.

Motorwise I have a 6-yr old Hacker B50 in mine, and a 7-yr old Kontronic 80A opto esc.

Hacker, Kontronic, Plettenberg, Neumotors, Mega - all efficient inrunners - and more recently perhaps Arc 36-xx are possible choices.

Cheap junk motors might allow you to get a few flights in before they demagnetize ...
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 06:05 PM
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haha, I wish they mixed well. Ill check out those motors, and actually I do have ducting (Im a little ocd about aerodynamics)have some nice stuff that should fix a 70mm quite well. Ill do some research. Thanks!
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Old Feb 03, 2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
... You need a 75mm-85mm fan in it to fly it decently...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
... For fan you need a 75mm to 90mm ....
see above.
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Old Feb 20, 2009, 01:58 AM
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Herb,
I'm so glad I ran across your thread and that you are still flying your F86.
I got mine down a few days ago and decided to reserect it to flying status. I had flown in on the CVDF, but was very disappointed with its performance. Now I'm very excited to convert it to electric using your setup if I can find the components. I have one question. Early on you said you used three servos, but I can only find info on two (the elevator and ailerons). Did you have a servo for the rudder or did you make it fixed? In your pics I don't see any of the connections to the rudder.
Back to tearing out the innards. I wish I didn't build so strongly.
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Old Mar 05, 2009, 12:42 PM
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I have servos on the ailerons, elevator and nosegear steering, plus a small one on the Springair air valve. I did not put in a rudder to reduce complexity & maintenance (it's already crowded in the fuse with that big 85mm HW-620 fan).

A friend took these pictures of mine last weekend and then went overboard on the photoshop,

.
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Old Mar 13, 2009, 04:20 PM
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Thanks Herb

I really appreciate the work you put into your F-86. It looks terrific and from the video flies like an F-86 should instead of the way Kyosho set it up. I have found since converting planes to electric that it can be tricky so I'm so happy to find that yours is such a good flier. I have ordered the same motor and fan unit you have from Ductedfans.com and found they also make a ducting setup for the F-86 and the HW-620. I talked with Morse there and he assured me I could fit the spring air 602's in as well. The rest of the setup I've got consists of a Hacker B50 18S, a Flighttech 80Amp ESC, and two Flight Power Evo Light 3200mah 20C 11.1V batteries in parallel so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all this will work even close to what you have. I reallly like your elevator setup, but I'm still unclear about the rudder.
Is it secured some how or does it flutter? I may try putting an H55 servo on its side in front of the elevator servo with the arm sticking up through the fuse and connected to the rudder on only one side just for trim purposes. Thanks again for doing such a great job on your Sabre and inspiring me to get mine back in the air. Just one more question: Where did you end up finding the best CG? I've seen anywhere from 165mm to 185mm. I think you said 175mm but I'm wondering if that changed with the 602's installed?
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Old Mar 13, 2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Pilot
... Thanks again for doing such a great job on your Sabre and inspiring me to get mine back in the air. ...
It's just that Kyosho did a very good design on this one - as it did with many other models they made. Perhaps not the best scale looks, but well engineered, lightweight & outstanding fliers ...

Did you make ducting on yours? Mine has full ducting and that make I think a big difference. It was quite a bit of work for me to do the ducting : foam plug, covering, manufacture glass duct, cut and adjust ...

I hope it works out for you, the installation of the Springair retracts was not easy as there is very little space left in there ... everything is very cramped.

The CG was where Kyosho recommends it from day one, and never changed.

Yes adding a rudder is easy I suppose - mine is glued in fixed (no risk of flutter).
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Old Mar 13, 2009, 07:55 PM
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I'm going to try the ducting from Ductedfans.com and modify it from there. It should be much faster than making my own plugs and doing the glass work. I hope they will work well. I'll let you know after I get them in. Thanks for the help.
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Old Mar 15, 2009, 12:00 PM
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Let us know how it goes ... the problem is not so much the duct to the fan, but mating it to the intake - which is oval shaped. Also make sure you leave space for the batteries ...
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Old Mar 17, 2009, 09:06 PM
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Gear placement

I got my 602's today and I am starting to install the mains. As you said it is a tight fit. The question I have is did you put the main units infront of the existing gear rails or did you cut them lengthwise so the struts would be at about the same location as the fixed gear. In looking at the construction I think I will try to place the new gear in front of the blocks and add an additional block forward of the trunion to attach the setup to. I'm still behind the CG. Any other advice you have about installing these would be appreciated. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel(or gear).
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Old Mar 20, 2009, 01:56 PM
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Not sure what I cut - it's been a while. I know I had to dremel out some wood, and it was quite strong wood. And of course some rails had to be added.

My main gear wires, when extended, are located as follows (I use Springair 602's):

* centered 64 mm ahead of wing trailing edge at fuse centerline

* centered 117 mm left and right from wing centerline

Hope this helps hwh
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Old Apr 05, 2009, 11:09 PM
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Herb,
Thanks for your help. I finally got the retracts in and I'm happy with the look and performance. I decided to put the mains at the front of the existing rails rather than cutting all that out and it gave me a little more chord to work with(I did add a tail skid though). I also threaded the struts and put retaining nuts rather than collets since they take up less space. Just a drop of loctite and they're good to go. Now I have to install the actuator valve. If you have any tips here I would appreciate what you have to say. I've studied your photos and I have a good idea as to where you placed it, but I'm still wrestling with the best way to attach it for strength and lightness. I have an H55 to operate it.
I'm still waiting for the power and ducting. Once that arrives I'll finfish it up and post some pics although they won't be as enticing as your latest set. I'm amazed at how low it looks to be flying in the one photo.
Bob
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Old Apr 06, 2009, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Pilot
... Now I have to install the actuator valve. If you have any tips here I would appreciate what you have to say. I've studied your photos and I have a good idea as to where you placed it, but I'm still wrestling with the best way to attach it for strength and lightness. I have an H55 to operate it. ... Bob
It all looks good ... The actuator valve was placed in my case in a spot where there was still some space left...

The most important consideration is where to place the batteries, to get the CG right. After that is settled (and it depends for ex on where you put the motor/fan), you can arrange the rest of the components in the remaining empty spaces.

I have my 820mAh Sanyo NimHd receiver battery on the left ahead of the fan, and ahead of that the Springair valve + hs55 servo mounted on a small ply board attached to the side of the fuse with velcro.

On the right, ahead of the fan I have the Kontronic 80A esc with big alu fins.

The receiver (Futaba Fasst 6ch) is mounted in the cockpit, together with an led voltmeter and the standard Springair air tank.

Make sure you post some pictures at some point...
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Old Apr 11, 2009, 12:42 AM
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F86 in progress pics

Herb, Here are some pics of the retracts installed. The fuse is undergoing extensive mods from its original life with the OS15CVDF. The new innards should be here in a week or so. Bob
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Old Apr 11, 2009, 12:52 AM
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More pics

Here are a couple more pics of some of your ideas I have copied and a couple of my own. I really appreciate all your help. Bob
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Old Apr 11, 2009, 11:38 AM
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Looks good ... make sure your main wheels are behind the CG.
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Old Apr 11, 2009, 11:58 AM
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You might as well at this stage (primer) close the two small cheater / cooling holes on the side. Otherwise you will always get the question "Did the original one have those ?? "
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Old Apr 11, 2009, 05:01 PM
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cheater holes

I thought about that, but you had mentioned cooling the batteries and ESC so I decided to wait, but I guess with the nose gear hole there will be enough air to keep things cool enough.
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Old Apr 12, 2009, 01:45 PM
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Yes, if you have other ways of cooling the innards, then I would close the holes. Originally they were designed to get air to the icdf fan.

Make sure you have holes in the ply fan mount, so that cooling air that comes in at the front goes out at the back. I had originally too little of that airflow.

As time goes by I find that with better batteries (higher c rating) all my components get hotter (esc, motor) so it's a good thing to plan for cooling in advance.
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Old Apr 12, 2009, 05:34 PM
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I have removing the scoops. What a difference in the overall appearance. I guess I just got used to having them there and forgot they don't really belong.

Thanks for the insights on cooling, especially the formers. I have made templates for the new formers that will now include extra holes so the air can move all the way through. I won't cut them until I get the new fan unit to be sure of correct alignment.

I orignally cut out the front windscreen of the canopy to allow for more air to the icdf so I'll leave that which combined with the nose gear opening should provide quite a bit of air for cooling.
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Old Apr 14, 2009, 11:09 PM
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...if you close the windscreen with for ex. a matching mylar it will look better. You will still have plenty of cooling, and it will reduce your drag significantly.

We don't want drag in an F-86
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 01:06 AM
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Good idea! I just finished smoothing down the sides where the scoops were. Wow, what a difference! I had not realized how different it looked with them. Now I'll reconstruct the cockpit in between working on my A-10 and Tcat. I have too many projects going for one building season. Hopefully the innards will arrive soon. I'm getting impatient to get it in the air.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 12:05 PM
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The only thing I would add (and which you probably know already) is : build it light with a postal scale at hand .

Don't add anything that's not necessary, and take off as much as you can ... use lightweight pu glue when you really don't need heavy epoxy. Go light on the primer and generally avoid high gloss or metallic finishes.

Minimize servo count if you can, so that you can reduce receiver battery weight (for that reason I generally prefer non-digital servos for non-critical functions).

As a reference, mine weighs ready to fly 75.6 oz = 4.73 lbs = 2.15 kg (the fuse weighs 42.1 oz, the wing 13.4 oz and the batts + connector 20.1 oz).

On the new TP 30C pro batteries I get around 1350W at 64A. My setup is rather efficient (HW-620 fan, Hacker B50 motor and Kontronic 80A esc), and has good power in flight.

.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 03:15 PM
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Light means flight! Mine looks like it will finish at about 75 oz. At present the fuse with nose gear, 4 servos, air tank etc, but otherwise empty is weighing in at 21 oz. The wing with aileron servo and mains is at 13.6 oz. I'm pretty much using your setup but my ESC is a Flight Tech 80A (2.7 oz.)and batteries are 2 FP EVO LITE 3200 mah 11.1 LiPos(18 oz. for the pair). The RX is an AR6200(just .3 oz). I hadn't intended to use a separate RX battery, just the BEC. So depending on the fan unit(Wemotec 85mm), the motor(Hacker B50-18s) and the ducting from DuctedFans it should be close.

I do appreciate the reminder, because I have a tendency to build heavy by overdoing things. Which TP batteries are you using now?
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 11:06 PM
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I fly the F-86 on various 3S+3S=6S packs I have ... some are evo 30C 3200, some are the newer TP 30C 3200 which give a bit more power, some are even older (3yr) Kokam 3200 packs.

That way, when I bring the F-86 out, I can fly it several times without having to re-charge.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Herb, Thanks for the info on the batteries. I take it you can use 30C batteries with your existing set up(I wish I was a whole lot smarter about battery configuration! ).

I finally received the fan unit and the motor(I'm still waiting on the intake and thrust tubes I ordered) and so I'm moving on to the next steps. I did close the cheater holes in the fuse and the canopy along with using a lightweight nose wheel. Now I'm playing with the fan installation and I'm wondering if you used both the Kysosho formers or just one. I made a new rear former from light ply and put lots of holes in it, but in looking over your pics I don't see evidence the forward former. If I could get away with one, I'd save having to cut and fit another, but I want it to be strong enough. Did you use silicone to attach yours?
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 07:50 PM
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I believe I used only one former ... most likely I used silicone to attach the fan to the former.

The batteries are older evo 30C (one year old) and newer Tp 30C (a few months old). The newer TP seem to perform a bit better and more importantly seem to last longer ....
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Old Apr 24, 2009, 11:26 AM
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This is the only former I used ... It's hard to believe I have been flying this F-86 for four years now on the same setup

.
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Old Jul 16, 2009, 11:56 PM
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conversion update

Seems like forever since I last posted about my F86, but finally I have all the pieces in place. Everything went smoothly except the thrust tubes. Ducted fans.com sent them to the wrong customer and then didn't get them returned or make new ones for a while. I should have made them myself. Anyway, my patience paid off and they finally came. I have them installed along with the batteries, receiver, ESC etc. and it weighs in all up at just over 75 oz. I still have a ew connections and final checks before the maiden, but I think its gonna fly. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them.
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Old Jul 17, 2009, 10:30 PM
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here are some pics of the current state of construction.
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Old Aug 04, 2009, 02:05 PM
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Very nice

I think the hump for the NG is a good solution.

Looks like you're set to go ... did you test-fit the batteries inside. Mine is really kind of cramped, I use two TP 3300 30C pro sets, 3S+3S=6S.
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