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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:16 PM
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Mini-Review
F-86 Sabre "Skyblazers" by Kyosho








I received a few questions about my gas to electric conversion of the Kyosho F-86 Sabre,

http://www.kyosho.co.jp/web/products...f_sabre-e.html

(specs are listed above).

I found the kit at a LHS (Ultimate) about six months ago - at a very good price, it did not seem to sell very well. I had seen the gas one (OS .15 CV-DF) fly and it flew ok - but boringly slow ... :

Kyosho F-86 Sabre video with OS .15 CV-DF

I heard people had just swapped the 90mm Kyosho icdf fan for a WeMoTec MidiFan, but that option I found unappealing because of the lack of any ducting. So I carefully made my own ducting plug out of blue foam, covered it and glassed it. After reinforcing it with carbon tow, I found it fitted quite well.

The intake area (around 37 cm^2) determined the fan size: I needed to get (from warbirds-rc.com) a WeMotec 620, 85 mm diameter, with an eff. fsa of about 43 cm^2. The Sabre intake is a bit bigger than my K&A MiG-15 (33 cm^2) which flies very well on the smaller HW-609 fan (eff fsa 32.2 cm^2).

In any case the 90mm Midi is just too big to allow space for both ducting and batteries (unless you cool the batteries in the ducting ).

Here's the finished product, after the maiden (actually two flights), last Saturday Oct. 15 :

http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/show...cat=509&page=1


.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:21 PM
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The setup right now is a WeMotec HW-620 fan (85mm) w/o motor cone & large spinner gap for cooling,

http://www.wemotec.com/2_1_6.html

a Hacker B50-18S (three years old, 100+ flights), a Jeti-Hacker Master 77A controller and 6S (3S+3S) Kokam 3200 HD pack. Also a separate receiver battery (350 mAh), three HS-85MG servos and fixed (stock & removable) gear.

It's very cramped inside and the Kokams & ducting just barely fit .
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:23 PM
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Looks great Herb! Fixed gear?
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:27 PM
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I comes with a very nice and light one piece fuselage. And avery nice decal set. The tail is slightly enlarged, which I don't mind as it probably flies better.


.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:32 PM
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It took me a looong time to do the ducting, a lot of patience first doing the plugs and then making the ducts themselves. Straighforward but tedious.

Here's some pictures of the duct work (fiberglass, carbon tow reinforced):


.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:41 PM
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Thanks Chris ! Yes fixed gear, for now.


Mylar tube for exhaust, choked down quite a bit to around 65mm (I think).

Elevator servo was re-positioned out of the way, with silver soldered y-linkage. Receiver is positioned in cockpit, batteries are sitting left (3S) and right (3S) of the duct, resting on the wing.

The cooling intakes, which I had thought initially of removing, are in fact just in the right position to blow air on the Kokams and the ESC.


.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:46 PM
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Herb,
That looks sharp! Tell us how it flew.........speed? rog? Stuff like that. How much does it weigh ready to fly? Size (in inches please) for us that don't do the conversions very well. Oh yes and your mothers maiden name... Just kidding about that last one. Seems like I am always getting asked that question for some reason or another.

Kerry
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:48 PM
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For now I have used the (fixed) landing gear that comes with it, it's simple to install and seems to work. The nose gear is fixed (no steering) and a bit weak - in the original the strut went all the way to the top of the fuse theorugh a ply plate (now removed to save weight).

If I really like a lot the way it flies, I might think about Springairs 602's. The retractable nose gear + steering would be a really tight fit ...


.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 05:59 PM
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This is a very lightweight kit (that's the reason I liked it in the first place .

Out of the box the empty plane weighs 29.9 oz (850 g) without servos, electronics, motor, fan, cables, batts, esc.

The wings are 4.3 oz (left) and 4.5 oz (right). The fg fuse is 11.5 oz.

My weight ready to fly came out at 69 oz (4.3 lbs, 1960 g) , which means it should fly well on as little as 700+ Watts. In which case a 3S setup might be more appropriate.

The Sabre's power setup on 6S Kokam 3200's HD delivers around 1380 Watts full throttle (cold batteries), which seems enough for a brisk takeoff in less than 80 feet or so.

The Sabre cruises along nicely at 1/2 throttle. Low drag and low weight means a whistling 100mph is erached quickly. The airframe (tail surfaces) seem a bit flimsy so this one's not designed for breaking speed records.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 06:07 PM
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The maiden was last Saturday, the wind was blowing at 20+ knots. CG was at 175mm according to (latest) instructions. Throws were as per instructions (5mm ail, 10mm ele).

This is the first plane I have ever built that did not require any trim inputs to fly straight and level hands off on the maiden !

The CG seems a bit foward (fast landings), the elevator throw was too low (having a hard time pulling the nose up on landing) , the ailerons throws were a bit too much, and were reduced after the first flight.

As I said, it cruises along nicely at 100mph at half throttle or so, it's the quitest and smoothest edf yet, perhaps because the fan mount I made is really strong but the silicone really smooths out the vibrations & resonances.

All in all, a wondeful kit. But a lot of work to make those ducts !!
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 06:37 PM
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Thanks for the report Herb. It sounds like a very nice kit. One of the LHS has a bunch of the Kyosho war plane kits in stock. They all look very nice.
This is the size of plane I like best. I am able to keep them oriented better it seems. It will be interesting to see how your retract set up goes. Keep us posted on that also.
Thanks,
Kerry
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 07:16 PM
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Great job Herb. I wondered if anyone was ever going to convert one of these... I know they've been out for a while.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 09:34 PM
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Looks great! Hope to see it fly in person very soon.
I remember you talking about doing this conversion 3 years ago!!!
The advent of LiPo battery technology has really made this type of conversion possible.
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Old Oct 18, 2005, 10:40 PM
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glad someone figured that one out, good job Herb
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Old Oct 19, 2005, 02:26 AM
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Really nice Herb, I'm wondering how many people out there would like a set of ducts???

Gene
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Old Oct 19, 2005, 02:40 AM
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With a proven setup, ducts probably will be in demand.

Looks great Herb, I'm guessing retracts soon.
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Old Oct 19, 2005, 12:53 PM
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Thanks for the comments guys.

The Kyosho F-86 electric conversion had been done before a few times, but none with ducting, as far as I am aware.

I think the performance without ducting must have been horrible as soon as you get above 70-80mph. You end up wasting a lot of precious lipo energy heating the air - with all that turbulence inside the fuse .

But doing the ducting yourself is a LOT of work, hopefully somebody (maybe ven Kyosho, why not) will come out with a nice 85mm-90mm F-86 with pre-made ducting.
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Old Oct 19, 2005, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriptonic
Really nice Herb, I'm wondering how many people out there would like a set of ducts???

Gene
Well, I would be interested in a set. I was just to chicken to ask. Now that it has been brought up, if you do offer them count me in.....

Kerry
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Old Oct 19, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriptonic
Really nice Herb, I'm wondering how many people out there would like a set of ducts???

Gene

That is exactly what I was thinking Gene.
Justin
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Old Oct 21, 2005, 02:52 PM
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Sorry no ducting plugs, I used acetone to dissolve the foam.

There hasn't been much interest in the Kysoho F-86 Sabre here for years, I did not think anybody would be really interested, after all the ritual Kyosho bashing by the experts .

I will have Al take a video perhaps on Sunday, tomorrow it's off to a friend's wedding
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 03:12 AM
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Great conversion Herb and looking forward to the video

Maybe Kyosho do deserve a bit of ritual "encouragement" now and then - sending them a DVD of your vid might help

Ref the ducting, wouldn't it be possible just to make it from rolled up thin grp sheet, or are the insides configured so that moulding is the easier route?

Cheers

Gordon
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 06:28 PM
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Thanks for the comments Gordon

What is grp? The problem with the intake is that it transitions from trapezoidal/squashed-oval at the mouth to round at the fan. Anytime you don't have a perfect fit at the intake, you lose some performance.

After Ron Laden posted his technique with paper & white glue, I had to try it myself when he did. That comes out very strong too if done right, but I think for 1400+ Watts it will need fg and carbon on the outside, otherwise you might get a really loud ka-boom on the first flight
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
What is grp?
Grp is Britspeak for fiberglass - Glass Reinforced Plastic
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 08:26 PM
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Herb, do you have a link or some more info on this paper and white glue ducting? Sounds interesting.

Justin
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 02:44 PM
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Do a search under Ron Laden in this forum, you will find it I am sure.
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 02:55 PM
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Video of the Sabre from yesterday, Alberto took the video with my Sony camera and did an excellent job !

Dougie came out and flew the Sabre (guess no seedy Buttville motels this weekend), so I just stood there and watched the show for once ...

Jon (LittleJon) took some very nice inflight pictures with his bad*ss Canon eos digital camera, which will be posted here later ...

Level flight speed in the video is around 108 mph, fan rpm around 29.8 krpms which gives around 1020 watts in flight wot, or ca 49 Amps. The full flight was about 4 mins.

F-86 Sabre video (17 MB, 2 mins)

Judging from the video, the Sabre takes off of short California grass in about 30 feet.
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 03:47 PM
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Awesome Herb!

Dunno how you keep that little 18S together at that power level , didn't sound like he was backing off the throttle much!
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 05:02 PM
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Nice video, flies really great Herb.
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 05:06 PM
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Beutiful flyer Herb. Good job.

Justin
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 05:36 PM
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I KNEW the B50-18S I once had ( and sold on... ) was good for far more than only 10 cells !
DAMMIT !

Herb, that looks almost REAL !
It JUMPS off the ground...

Keven.
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Old Oct 31, 2005, 03:33 AM
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[QUOTE=keven64]
Herb, that looks almost REAL !
It JUMPS off the ground... QUOTE]

A slight contradiction in terms there Keven ... the real machine did anything but jump off the ground, the F-86F with 6-3 wing needing a 3320ft (0.62 mile) ground roll, and 4720ft (0,9 miles) to clear a 50ft obstacle The slatted wing version did better (phew!).

That apart, yours sure goes great Herb, and shows Kyosho the direction they really should be going in She does look to land quite slow, with good low-speed stability.

Cheers

Gorodn
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Old Nov 01, 2005, 05:24 PM
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Thanks for the comments, it's really a nice flier .

Some more pictures taken by Jon (Canon EOS 10D) on Saturday:


.
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Old Nov 06, 2005, 04:08 PM
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And I got to do the honors of the maiden!
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 05:54 PM
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Balanced F-86 HW-620 fan spool up, after 4+ min flight (22% Kokam 3200 battery left) it still spins at 30.4k rpms, or around 1110 Watts . Thanks Bruce ...

<Testing if I can get these attachments to work >

http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/show...cat=500&page=1


Complete flight video here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=438267&pp=100
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 06:13 PM
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bmiller at work!

That was cool Herb, I only held the camera!
I had no idea you could figure out rpm by sound.
We'll have to try that on my 4s mega/2 Alfa!
Bruce
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 02:04 PM
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The 30.4k rpms gives you a rough handle on the efficiency of the setup.

The (no-load) kv of the Hacker B50-18S is 2000 rpms/V, so the no-load rpms on 6S is 20V x 2000 =40k rmps. The load rmps at full throttle is therefore 30.4/40 = 76 % of the no-load rpms.

A good rule for efficient (ie low heat generation) two-poles is around 80% of the no-load rpm, so the 76% is quite close to it.

In flight the rpms (at full throttle) increase another 10% or so (applying a spectral analyzer to the F-86 video), bringing the 76% figure close to 84% ...

F-86 Sabre video (17 MB, 2 mins)



.
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 02:36 PM
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thats just incredible....thanks for sharing!
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 02:44 PM
EDF all the way!
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Herb,You got me building another one and using a full duct. Using HW-620 fan, Hacker B50-15L and 6S2P Lipi pack.
Bob
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 02:52 PM
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As I understand it, Hacker is just one of a few motor mfg's that rate their motors Kv stat while it is under load. Most others do it free spinning and when put to use it usually "bogs down" alot more than the Hacker and other high end motor makers do if you use yoru rule of thumb. Have you noticed this much Herb or Bob?

Justin
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 02:53 PM
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Thanks guys Bob you'll love it, it's a sweet gentle flier ...

When you make the duct, plan ahead on where you will put the batteries. I think 3S+3S is probably the only way to go.

But 3S2P 2000's end to end, one long stick on each side, might take up less space. It makes a difference on how the duct should be shaped, there's very little space in there. The WeMotec HW-620 is the ticket imho.


Hacker no-load rpm table:

http://www.hacker-motoren.com/deutsch/b50_drehzahl.html

.
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 06:24 PM
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Herb, Where do you have the fan at?
Thanks,
Bob
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Old Feb 05, 2006, 11:38 PM
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The front of the fan (HW-620) is located around where the two wingbolts are, I used the original kyosho ply former to secure it (it needs to be reduced in diameter to accept an 85mm fan). I played around quite a bit with the fan and the batteries to see what the best location was, so that the batteries would be easily accessible, and the CG would come out right.

The picture below shows that the fan is hidden just behind the rear wing mount.

.
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdemon
Hi, following this discussion in the power system forum:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489821
I would ask if anyone has experience in this setup for my Kyosho F86: Hacker B50-15S (or 16S?), Wemotec HW620, 5S lipos. I know Herb made a successful Sabre with 6S lipos and same fan with a B50-18S, but having three new 5S packs, I would like to use them... PG
To get roughly the same power I get on 6S - but on 5S - you will need a motor with a kv of 2000 x 6/5 = 2400, which would roughly correspond to a Hacker B50-15S:

http://www.hacker-motor.com/deutsch/b50_drehzahl.html

... but this might not work as the amps will go through the roof (the battery won't handle it?). So a softer wind might be a wiser choice ...
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Old Apr 08, 2006, 03:07 PM
The simplest, the better!
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Herb
I had purchased a B50-16S and have in hand both 4S and 5S packs, so I can play a little trying a correct setup. Thanks for the suggestion, I admire your work. Just a question regarding the ducts diameter: the intake and exaust of the model have a diameter smaller than the fan itself. This inverted "venturi" will slow the airstream in front of the fan: will this cause a loss in performance? Enlarging the intake (out of scale) will improve the fan efficency?
Thanks in advance
Pierluigi
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 01:29 PM
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The large exhaust is no problem, you can narrow it down with an appropriately rolled mylar tube.

The intake is indeed too small for a 90mm fan (eg Midifan), but the HW-620 (85mm diam) works fine. Keep in mind that you want to match the F-86 intake area to the fan swept area (fsa), which is defined as the circular area of the fan minus the circular area of the fan hub. Even if the intake is a few percent below the fsa that is still not a problem from an airflow/efficeincy point of view. So, to answer your question, yes the fan looks like it has a bigger area but in fact it does not, as there's no airflow through the hub .

Perhaps the most important aspect of the ducting is to get a nice smooth transition with no bends and abrupt restrictions/enlargements from the intake to the fan.
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 03:44 PM
The simplest, the better!
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Thanks a lot, Herb!
you've made it all clear, this was the answer I was looking for . Now I can proceed with my F86. I'll keep you updated...
Pierluigi
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdemon
... Enlarging the intake (out of scale) will improve the fan efficency? ...
Many edf's have enlarged intakes, here's my latest finished project which shows what I mean. I think now it looks too good to be flown ... Weight rtf 32oz with Kont 480-33, I think I'll let her hang in the garage though for a few weeks .


.
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 12:29 PM
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It's a classic isn't it?
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 01:00 PM
Watts your motivation
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Like the old Ferrari parked in the garage. Not an every day flyer, but deffinitely a flyer for good weather days. Looks great Herb.

Justin
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 01:28 PM
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Looks great Herb. I didn't even know Robbe made a Gnat. Hard to find their old kits.
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 01:35 PM
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I LOVE the Folland Gnat, though I prefer the Yellowjacks colour scheme !

Keven.
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Old Apr 22, 2006, 12:23 PM
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... Definitely a classic , the kit was unfortunately discontinued a few years back, but there's still a few kits out there, Robbe Gnat video as flown by DS last year.
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Old Apr 22, 2006, 06:39 PM
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That is a sweet looking power unit !!!!Looks like blistering speed. My Robbe hunter is one of the fastest e-jets I have ! like to see a video of that one........
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Old Apr 24, 2006, 01:27 AM
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Pictures from today's maiden (CG was too far back ) ... scoots along nicely though ...

Video here


.
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Old Apr 24, 2006, 04:46 AM
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Hi Herb,

Both very nice indeed, the little Gnat is real sweet.

Glad to hear someone has given the paper lay-up method a try. You are quite right Herb it does tend to need some stiffeners adding in the appropriate places. It can be made quite rigid by laying up more layers, but it then becomes a bit too heavy. I think it is better to stay thinner and lighter with a few stiffeners, next time I use it I think I will add them to the final layer.

Justin you will find the method described here. Post 27.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...7&page=2&pp=15

Cheers
Ron
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Old Apr 24, 2006, 11:28 AM
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Thanks Ron, your discussion indeed encouraged me to go back to the paper/tissue and white glue method (which is also mentioned, besided low temp film, in the Robbe instructions).

The Gnat pictures - because of the re-sizing when you upload them ? - actually seem to show more of a rougher surface than it actually is.

I generally find paper & white glue on such small models far better than 1/2oz fiberglass, which tends to be a complete overkill. You can use a sheeted and fiberglasses wing to drive woodposts in the ground , who on earth is going to ever use such strength?

After sanding the bare foam a bit I used diluted elmer's white glue to apply the tissue. Then I applied several coats of Minwax Polycrylic with a brush (the can version works well to but is thinner) to get a smooth sandable surface. The Gnat's empty foam airframe was 6.3 oz before the paper covering, the finishing incl. paint added 2oz.

The finish is tamiya water based acrylic gloss red applied with an airbrush. The red arrows decals were printed on an inkjet printer with testors decal paper.


.
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Old Apr 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
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Nicely done Herb!

I am also a proponent of paper/glue finishes.
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Old Apr 24, 2006, 12:22 PM
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WHAT is that green stuff?
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Old Apr 26, 2006, 12:35 AM
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Yes green soft grass , long days and absolutely fantastic weather lately.

I need a horse trailer though !! Can't leave the Kyosho Spitfire at home now - after it was clocked at 120mph with a radar gun last Sunday

.
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Old Apr 26, 2006, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
I need a horse trailer though !! Can't leave the Kyosho Spitfire at home now - after it was clocked at 120mph with a radar gun last Sunday

.
Herb
Do you have the Axi 4120/14 in your Spitfire? That's pretty fast. I got my GP Combat Corsair up to 116mph but that was with a lot of tailwind and a huge dive.
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Old Apr 26, 2006, 01:29 AM
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I was told by the person with the $600 radar gun (mr. Chang aka c corumang) that the 120mph pass was at 90 degrees to the wind . I have a Hyperion 40-25 on 6S in it, here's a short video taken a few weeks ago by Todd.

A guy (Vinnie) with a Bearcat clocked at 119mph (not sure if upwind or downwind) the same day, the WeMotec MiG-15 at 129mph level upwind in a 15mph headwind.
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Old Apr 26, 2006, 04:11 AM
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Wow! I hope my Axi is in the same ballpark, if not I'll have to get me a couple of the Hyperions. Sorry for getting off topic though.
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Old May 15, 2006, 12:18 PM
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Mr Chang had the radar gun out again and he read 105 mph for the Gnat on an upwind pass. It sure goes nicely now on the 4S setup:

Robbe Gnat video (3 mins, 32MB)
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:18 PM
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Finally got around to installing Springair pneumatic retracts in the F-86. I was getting tired of the fixed gear setup, it looked a bit silly in the air.

There was some serious WOOD under that wing skin, the dremel reached 3000 degrees at some point trying to vaporize it, have to ask Kyosho what kind of titanium forest this variety came from ...

The wing is quite thin so the installation wasn't perfect, I covered the retract mounts for now with some temporary silver tape until I find some better solution (and a matching color).

.
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:20 PM
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There's very little space in the front too due to the full ducting I made two years ago.

.
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:26 PM
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Previously I had tested the seals on the Springairs, they hold 100 psi pressure for a month and a half (while I was in Japan) ...

The front steering setup isn't done yet, as the space is really tight in there, should be done in a few evenings. Need to place the steering servo between the two Kokam 3200 packs (both 1.5 years old, 50+ flights ).

.
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:30 PM
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I flew it already three times this weekend, with no steering (fixed direction) on the front wheel ... It flies nicely and looks A LOT better in the air. I think it's around 5mph faster too, especially after a slight dive.

The weight increase from fixed to retracts must have been around 5oz or so, but I can't tell the difference except on takeoff. What's a few more oz on 1540 Watts .
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Old Oct 16, 2007, 12:35 AM
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Nice work Herb, it looks great in the air.

Think I'll have to order up some Kokam 3200s for my birds, your kokams work better/longer than my other brands of lipos.

Bruce
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Old Oct 18, 2007, 05:13 PM
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I finally managed to squeeze a steering servo in there, so the conversion is now more or less done. Or at least it's again in flyable condition

The airtank has to go under the canopy, as there's really nowhere else to put it.

The weight rtf is now at 75.9 oz or ca. 2.16 Kg, on ca. 1500 Watts of power on the two-year-old 6S (3S+3S) Kokam 3200's ...

On tyhe other hand my two new junk TP 5000 so called extreme 3S packs (date code august 2007) are going back to thunderpower after 3 (three) flights in the rafale ...


.
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Old Oct 18, 2007, 08:13 PM
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Theres an almost NIB one for sale in the F/S fuel jet forum.
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 12:06 PM
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Yes, and that video looks familiar too
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 12:44 PM
EDF Jet Jam May 2014
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Herb,
Do you have stock invested in Probond?
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 12:57 PM
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Herb,
I live in the Anaheim area and would love to see your jet fly. If you don't mind telling the location of your flying site? I have returned to RC after about a 30 yr. layoff and love the new electrics. Not ready for the jets yet, love the planes but don't like the noise. You sound like you licked some of that with your custom ducting.

Great looking jet!

Carl
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 01:17 PM
EDF Jet Jam May 2014
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Carl,
They fly at Fairview Park next to Estancia HS.
It is the home of the Harbor Soaring Society.
Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallsracing
Herb,
I live in the Anaheim area and would love to see your jet fly. If you don't mind telling the location of your flying site? I have returned to RC after about a 30 yr. layoff and love the new electrics. Not ready for the jets yet, love the planes but don't like the noise. You sound like you licked some of that with your custom ducting.

Great looking jet!

Carl
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 01:28 PM
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nice herb!

Barry
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 06:26 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for the info. I used to be a member of the HSS back in the mid 70's or so, when all we did was soaring. I will have to try and make it down there soon, the jets look fantastic.
Carl Walls
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 06:31 PM
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Thanks for the comments ... the retract mounts were glued in with slow cure epoxy and microbaloons. Some areas are just silver painted kyosho wood? Could have done more dremel work in the wing wheel wells but there's too much risk of dremeling out to the other side of the wing . I only used some probond to secure the steering servo ply box.

We fly weekends (myself mostly Saturday afternoon after 1pm) at Fairview park, at the HSS site you are familiar with. Maybe we'll see you there sometime in the future...
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Old Oct 19, 2007, 08:15 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
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I'm working saturday.
Wll be there sunday.

Bruce
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Hi there,
I am building one of these and also plan to convert to electric.
I am using a wemotec midi fan 1750kv brushless hacker and 6cell li-po.

Did you duct the model internally? I am going to duct it behind the fan but dont know whether to duct in front and loose the landing gear.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Lee
Hi Lee,

My Sabre flies with a Hacker B50 with a kv=2000, so it's a bit hotter than your wind, and I run it on 6S. I have run this setup for four years now and it hums as good as on the first day. Make sure you have plenty of motor cooling

The Midi ias bit big, but comparable to the Kyosho icdf fan it came with. I use a WeMoTec HW-620 which is 85mm diameter. That size fan was determined by measuring the intake area and taking it to be 82% fsa. for the fan.

I have full ducting in front and behind the fan, I have seen edfs fly without ducting and the performance was not so good ... a lot of precious LiPo energy wasted into heat trying to get the model to fly right. Admittedly doing the duct can be quite a bit of work.

.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 02:18 PM
Cloudrider
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Herb of F-86 fame where for art thou

Hello Herb and all fellow readers, this is the only way I could see to contact you herb. Would there be anyway when you get a spare moment you could possibly supply me with a few dimensions or say an A4 outline of your fabulous Kyosho F-86 Front Duct cross section with nose removed and possibly the rear of the nose itself ? Both Cross section view. I loved the work you did on that model. I have managed to get hold of a second hand one without any infill of the nose at all. It was intended for IC. I'm not entirely sure why the front is totally open on my acquired model (maybe an earlier Import version). I would of course be happy to pay you for your time and postage or email etc. But having seen yours fly to great effect, I wanted to be in the right ball park. I notice you mention in your great notes back in 2005 that the Eff FSA of the moulded front intake was approx 37cm^2 yet the FSA of the WeMoTec was 43cm^2. You obviously had no trouble with this, just wondered if you took a similar approach to the Chris Gold (UK) using a smaller FSA at the Lip of the Intake Duct. ( I can't see any sign of this) Also are there any mods you'd consider to the F-86 if you were to start again with todays updated technology. Great many thanks no matter what the outcome, your work is truly Inspirational. Kindest regards Paul UK.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
... Would there be anyway when you get a spare moment you could possibly supply me with a few dimensions or say an A4 outline of your fabulous Kyosho F-86 Front Duct cross section with nose removed and possibly the rear of the nose itself ? Both Cross section view.
Well I am not sure I understand the question ... I used the standard Kyosho inlet. The ducting was made so it would mate perfectly (ok by figure of speech ) to the intake. So in other words there were no modifications to the Kyosho-supplied inlet ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
I loved the work you did on that model. I have managed to get hold of a second hand one without any infill of the nose at all. It was intended for IC. I'm not entirely sure why the front is totally open on my acquired model (maybe an earlier Import version).
Mine was the IC version too, it's the only version as far as I know. If I understand you correctly (what language do you Brits speak anyhow ) you are saying there's no ducting on yours. Of course, that's the way the ICDF kit is ... you have to make your own ducting, unfortunately

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
I would of course be happy to pay you for your time and postage or email etc. But having seen yours fly to great effect, I wanted to be in the right ball park. I notice you mention in your great notes back in 2005 that the Eff FSA of the moulded front intake was approx 37cm^2 yet the FSA of the WeMoTec was 43cm^2. You obviously had no trouble with this, just wondered if you took a similar approach to the Chris Gold (UK) using a smaller FSA at the Lip of the Intake Duct. ( I can't see any sign of this)
The size of fan was determined by the Kyosho F-86 intake size, which I measured... From there I determined that a 90mm fan (eg MidiFan), which some had used, was inefficient. That's why I opted for the smaller diam HW-620 fan (85mm). In any case the MidiFan is too big to fit any other equipment like batts esc etc. in the fuse, with ducting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
Also are there any mods you'd consider to the F-86 if you were to start again with todays updated technology. Great many thanks no matter what the outcome, your work is truly Inspirational. Kindest regards Paul UK.
Thanks for the kind words ... The F-86 is a great flier and I still fly it off grass on a regular basis, on the original setup (6S 3200 Lipos) at ca. 1600W, with Springair 602 retracts. Others who have flown it love it too.

In my opinion 80-90mm edfs is the smallest size you want to attempt to fit good quality air retracts in, anything smaller and you end up in grossly overweight fantasyland.

The only slight problem with it is that it's really cramped in there with batts, Hacker 77A esc, airvalve + servo, retracts + nosesteering servo. But it works. On larger models access and therefore maintenance is easier.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 07:40 PM
Cloudrider
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Hi Herb, many thanks for the speedy assistance. Apologies for my conflicting use of the Kyosho wording. I fully appreciate theres no Ducting supplied Herb, but your model (all models as sold probably) seem to have the lovely top lipped front Intake at the nose. This seems to remove and reveal a smaller dia oval intake moulded into the front of the nose. Sadly my model has probably had it's entire front lip cut off . So the only intake at the front of it's fuzz is basically the outermost Glassfibre skin. I will be aiming to reproduce and return all the original features and hence get as close as I can to your setup. Would be glad to supply a pic if you think it might help? But again appreciate you finding the time to reply. Kind regards Paul.
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Old Jul 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
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Yes I think a picture would help so I can understand what's left of the nose on yours ...

But most likely you will have to go with some sort of oval - shaped FG (you Brits call it GRP) tube mated to the intake.
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Old Jul 18, 2008, 04:44 AM
Cloudrider
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Fully agree Herb, I've done a fair bit of FG work. So that's no real problem (famous last words!). The measured distance from front of canopy cutout too the front top edge of whats left of the nose is approx 98mm. So a basic outline of what your sabre nose does from there forwards would be a real help. Picture attached hopefully to help us both get onto the same page. Many thanks again. Much appreciated, cheers Paul.
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Old Jul 18, 2008, 12:40 PM
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Well Cloudriderurt you could get some Dow blue styrofoam (hopefully you can find 2" thick or 4" thick pieces) or failing that multilayered depron (glue the layers together to build a block big enough) or even white EPS foam and glue it to the front of the F-86 and carve/sand a new nose piece. Use quality 3 views or photographs to get the side shape correct and the nose opening close to where you want. A side view photograph or 3 view of the nose enlarged on a zerox or printed on the pc using a program called tileprint (lets you scale a bitmap to a desired size and print it out) could give you a template for carving the foam. After that adding in inlet tube to the fan with thick paper cardstock or fiberglass sheet or 1/64 ply could be made to feed the fan.
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Old Jul 18, 2008, 01:09 PM
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Ok Paul here's a few pictures for you ... As Ed says you don't have to redo the intake exactly as the Kyosho one, you could improve on it maybe.

But going with the Kyosho design is a safe choice, and there are obvious constraints from the fuse diameter, intake size & nose length etc.

Hope this helps, hwh

.
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Old Jul 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
Cloudrider
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Many thanks

Hello Ed,Herb. Want to thank you both for the time you have taken to help me with the details. This will really help me move forward. It's great to see the modelling spirit being kept alive so effectively by such keen enthusiasts. Truly appreciate your valuable time guys, kindest regards from the UK! Cheers Paul.
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Old Jul 21, 2008, 01:43 PM
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Glad I was able to help ... Let us know how it goes
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Old Aug 17, 2008, 01:22 PM
Eipper
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Ready ......

....
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 02:21 PM
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Karachi, Pakistan
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Kyosho F 86

Hi Herb,

I have an option of getting the Kyosho F86 from a fellow modeler who has it sitting in his warehouse. I have read your thread and was looking for the HW 620 fan , it seems these are hard to find. Is there any other fan that I can use. I can get the Hacker Motor that is no issue.

The plane as it stands is a .15 glow model and I intend to build a duct like you did but only if I can source the fan.

Thanks in advance


Mahir
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Old Sep 29, 2008, 10:35 AM
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Have you contacted Oliver @ WeMoTec www.wemotec.com to see if he can get you an HW-620 fan?

I would think the MidiFan is just a bit too big for it. Apart from the intake and outlet issue, it would leave very little place for the other components esp. the batteries.

Another option would be some other fan, in the 75mm to 85 mm range (the MiniFan makes no sense in the F-86 as it's too small a fan). In practice the possible choices would include the HW-620 (85mm), HW-609 (75mm), the DS 44 (85mm, pricy), or the Haoye fans about which I have no experience (do they wobble vibrate and fly apart as soon as you put a decent motor in them?).

Just for reference, my F-86 Sabre now flies with Springair 602's on ca. 1400 W with a Hacker B50 and 6S Flightpower evo 30C 3200's; I flew it three times this weekend and she's still a crowd pleaser. Low weight, low drag and good handling make it a fast plane.

In the pictures below I gave it a bit of armorall to bring out the shine after three years of flying


.
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Old Oct 14, 2008, 11:35 PM
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Hi Herb,

Thanks for your reply, I was away for two weeks and did not see your reply. I am looking for the fan and will update once I have something that will fit. I like the color scheme so much that i will be painting a New Alfa Sabre , let see how that turns out.

Mahir
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Old Oct 15, 2008, 11:39 AM
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"Cutting Edge" Decals makes a set of decals for the F-86 Sabre Skyblazers, these could be scanned too and scaled to suit the model size,

.
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Old Oct 16, 2008, 08:28 AM
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Thanks again Herb I will check it out.
Mahir
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Old Nov 08, 2008, 04:25 AM
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Wemotec

Hi Herb,

Hope you are still around, I managed to contact Oliver at Wemotec and he offered me two versions of the HW 620.

1st is the fan in a tube with either 170 or 200 mm length, or a complete one with two formers , intake and nozzle. Can you tell me which one I need.

Mahir
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Old Nov 08, 2008, 12:22 PM
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I believe the HW-620 fan I used was the base version - no intake plastic cup.

I would go with the shorter 17cm one, that's plenty of length for the Sabre.

The two thin ply formers you see in the picture below could be useful for mounting the fan though, otherwise it just comes with a carbon shroud.

.
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Old Nov 09, 2008, 01:52 PM
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Thanks once again, will let you know how it proceeds once I collect all the parts, the fan is coming from Germany and the motor esc from Singapore. Heh , and the model is being assembled in Pakistan.

Mahir
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Old Nov 09, 2008, 01:56 PM
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Singaporan motors eh !
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Just converted my f-86 to electric, as the gas motor was cutting out on me, im actually using a 55mm fan (very small) but, it gives roughly the same power to weight ratio with an 11.1 2100, as the gas did, but the whole setup is much lighter. Im about to go fly it (found this thread while looking for cg setups). Oh, and Herb, looked at your pictures, AMAZINGLY well done plane, but, I saw no cone on the back of your motor in the ducted fan... thats throwing away 10% of your energy, and losing a LOT of your thrust.
Anyway, Ill post results in a few (or crash pics
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Old Feb 02, 2009, 12:28 PM
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thats a big model for a 55mm fan. how many watts are you making?
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