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Old Aug 09, 2005, 07:02 PM
Registered User
Belgium
Joined Jun 2004
342 Posts
What about this definition:

A MAV is a micro aerial vehicle build by professionals or academics with the purpose of infringing somebodies privacy.

A micro model is a micro aerial vehicle build by hobbyists with the purpose of having fun.

Johan
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 07:13 PM
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FLY...Please's Avatar
Dayton, Ohio
Joined Jun 2005
177 Posts
Possible Scope of this Forum

I think that it would be most beneficial if this forum is not strictly limited in it's types of MAV content. It might be best to have different people investigate different aspects of MAV development; as their capabilities/ interest/ talent suits. However, I do think that there needs to be some adequately firm restriction on MAV size. It might be best to follow the MAV guidelines that were laid out by DARPA. All that DARPA says is that for aircraft to qualify as a MAV it must:
1) Have no maximum dimension exceeding 6" or 15cm .
The maximum dimension is defined as the maximum distance between any 2 points on the MAV. This means that the tip of the V. stab and the tip of the prop could be one set of dimensions.
I think that this is important since any one of us can pretty easily make a 9 or 10" aircraft that is capable of long duration flights. I think that a 6" maximum dimension constraint is reasonable and will stretch the lower boundary of model aircraft size but will not be so difficult as to hinder anyone from being successful.

2. Weigh less than 100g. I think that this is a somewhat pointless restriction. I would find it very hard to have a MAV with a wing area of 26 in^2 and a weight of 100 grams or more.

3) Be capable of sustaining flight for at least 15 minutes. This is the clincher. It might be a good idea to have this as a goal. I know that most of us won't start out with 15 minute flight times... but if you start out with a flight time of 30sec+ then it is possible to increase you're flight time and start approaching and exceeding 15 minutes.

What do you guys think? Maybe in order to be considered an actual MAV all three of these criteria must be met. I understand that there is allot of work that is required to get to an "official" MAV and all of that work can be discussed in this thread. However I think that the ultimate goal should be to fit these design requirements.
Does anyone have any opinion about this approach?
-John
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 07:20 PM
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Belgium
Joined Jun 2004
342 Posts
John,


I think the DARPA rules sum it up rather nicely. Still I have some questions, like does a MAV needs to fly outside or can it be indoor only? Do we need to be capable of having a payload of defined mass during this 15 minute flight? Does there needs to be a bi-directional data link between the MAV and ground station? All RC equipment - how simple they are - have at least a uni-directional data link that carries information on how to run motor and or actuators/servos ...

Johan
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 07:33 PM
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Dayton, Ohio
Joined Jun 2005
177 Posts
Possible Scope of this Forum

I propose that the content should be pretty much anything and everything under the sun as long as there is still a large emphasis on minimization of size and the MAV definition.

Possible subdivisions of interest could be:

1. MAV Stability and Control
This could include stability analysis, flight testing, gyros, yaw dampeners, etc.

2. MAV "aerodynamics"
This could include testing of various MAV planforms, airfoils, and possibly something related to the "whale wings" post in this forum. FF models have used turbulators, etc and these might be appropriate for MAVs. Aerodynamics can also include wind/water tunnel testing and flight testing.

3. Propulsion systems
This could include micro props, motor testing and results, as well as both static and dynamic wind tunnel testing.

4. MAV Fabrication
This could include any and every type of fabrication. Composites, Foam, balsa, etc. Everything is fair fame.

5. MAV components
This could focus on one of the most important aspects of MAV development: Durability. Bench testing of servos, speed controls, cell discharge data, etc. could be included.

6. MAV flight testing
This could discuss actual MAV performance and flight troubleshooting.

7. Surveillance MAVs
This could be focused around developing a MAV that has surveillance capabilities. Surveillance has a tendency to push the MAV size up, but it is still probably important to focus on making a surveillance MAV that fits the definition of a MAV

8. Ornithopters
I think that this is a time in which the MAV definition can be lifted. I do not know of any MAV that can come close to a 15 minute flight time with a 6" airframe. The main focuses here could be miniaturization, minimizing wing loading, and stability.

9. MAV applications.
Object tracking, object detection, horizon detection/stabilization, enviromental monitoring, etc.

10. "Transitioning" MAVs.
These are the next generation of MAVs possibly. MAVs that can transition from fast horizontal flight to a 0-velocity vertical hover. Thought has been put into possibly making this part of the i-MAV competition in an upcoming year. These offer allot challenges but might be an interesting thing to pursue.

11. Adaptive wing MAVs
This is a really interesting concept that the guys at UF came up with. Basically the wing is an elastic membrane and is allowed to form with different pressure distributions. It seems to show marked improvements over conventional rigid wings. I think that it diffidently deserves a bit of attention.

What do you guys think? Any more ideas?
- John
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 07:47 PM
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aerogel's Avatar
Land of cajuns
Joined Dec 2001
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Beano poor mans mav. not only is it possible some of us have all ready have done it way back in the day...Me Mark Tilden and others where on a old news groups exchanging Idea’s hacking cassette players, tape drives floppy drives all most any thing we could find to make little robots....ever one knows them as BEAM Robotics today
I built several Uav’s under the same beam principle then.. There whole objective was to survive and to get back in the air. Simple home made tactical spring feedback sensors where used….they where really more like grasshoppers no r/c control but freaky

With all this gear' stuff we can hack and the skills…..the sky has no more limit
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 08:24 PM
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Land of cajuns
Joined Dec 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLY...Please
I think that it would be most beneficial if this forum is not strictly limited in it's types of MAV content. It might be best to have different people investigate different aspects of MAV development; as their capabilities/ interest/ talent suits. However, I do think that there needs to be some adequately firm restriction on MAV size. It might be best to follow the MAV guidelines that were laid out by DARPA. All that DARPA says is that for aircraft to qualify as a MAV it must:
1) Have no maximum dimension exceeding 6" or 15cm .
The maximum dimension is defined as the maximum distance between any 2 points on the MAV. This means that the tip of the V. stab and the tip of the prop could be one set of dimensions.
I think that this is important since any one of us can pretty easily make a 9 or 10" aircraft that is capable of long duration flights. I think that a 6" maximum dimension constraint is reasonable and will stretch the lower boundary of model aircraft size but will not be so difficult as to hinder anyone from being successful.

2. Weigh less than 100g. I think that this is a somewhat pointless restriction. I would find it very hard to have a MAV with a wing area of 26 in^2 and a weight of 100 grams or more.

3) Be capable of sustaining flight for at least 15 minutes. This is the clincher. It might be a good idea to have this as a goal. I know that most of us won't start out with 15 minute flight times... but if you start out with a flight time of 30sec+ then it is possible to increase you're flight time and start approaching and exceeding 15 minutes.

What do you guys think? Maybe in order to be considered an actual MAV all three of these criteria must be met. I understand that there is allot of work that is required to get to an "official" MAV and all of that work can be discussed in this thread. However I think that the ultimate goal should be to fit these design requirements.
Does anyone have any opinion about this approach?
-John
John under these guidelines the thread should be renamed darpa competition

Some of us have the carbon fiber, molding skills cnc machines cash flow to meet and exceed darpa’s guidelines but I think it throws out a whole lot of folks who have built some very interesting birds with a little Tweaking could make some great MAVs

Either way I’m up for the challenge
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 09:29 PM
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Farmington NM
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What about a set payload?
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Old Aug 09, 2005, 11:41 PM
in persuit of low wing loading
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Boston, Mass
Joined May 2001
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The intention of these MAV threads is not to have a contest, or a cookup, or a competition. They are merely threads for people to share. I don't think everyone sharing information, resources, ideas, techniques, and successes has to be operating under the "exact" same definition of MAV. It's probably nice if people are operating under some sort of reasonable definition of a MAV, like it is "small", or the thread will soon concern remote drones with three foot wing spans. But other than that it's probably best to swap information and let each person decide what type of definition of MAV they want to operate under. Purests will probably stick with the DARPA definition, others might go for something that is small and looks reasonably like a MAV and is fun for them in a hobby sense. Other than these loose guidelines it's probably best to have fun (as he leaves the workshop and heads to bed).

Gordon
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 01:54 AM
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Boston, MA
Joined Nov 2002
465 Posts
I was thinking of putting a small lightweight mirror on the bottom of a bit plane wing. With a camera on the ground with a telephoto lens if I can sight the mirror with the camera, I might be able to do airborne video with no onboard camera or downlink? Just having a little fun with this at 3:00 am while I debug code.

Bill
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 03:43 AM
Knight of Ni-wom
Victorville, CA
Joined Mar 2003
179 Posts
Hey all

Saw this thread and thought I'd share my MAV experiences so far!

I go to the University of Washington, and as a project last quarter we had to design a UAV (more of a MAV I think). Our criterion were that it had to fit in a 10" by 10" by 4" box, loiter time of at least 20 minutes, carry a camera for live video feed, cruise speed not to exceed 8 meters/sec (18 mph) and be statically stable in pitch (no roll calculations...)

The team I was on came up with a bi-flying wing design. We actually went ahead and custom built the motor for it (GBX single stator) and did some windtunnel testing to arrive at the best propellor combination.

We finished building it last week and attempted a maiden. Didn't go too well, as the handlaunch wasn't fast enough (forgot to build in an easy way to throw the thing!!). Damage was very minimal as we designed it to have break-away wings. Should be repaired and flown tomorrow though.

I'll get some pictures and post what we have so far. I could even post the 30 some odd page report we had to write on it

Loren
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 05:22 AM
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Germany, NDS, WOB
Joined Nov 2000
5,922 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLY...Please
9. MAV applications.
This could get fun. Think of the possibilities . M80-carrying MAVs, "suicide bombing" MAVs, etc. Just don't target people . Chemical and biological agent testing, object tracking, etc.
Not much fun in that even with the smilies. Lets not go there - a lot of teens might have their imagination run away. Discussions about those uses are not for this forum.

I am have mixed feelings about MAVs. A lot of the development is clearly centered around military uses and as a hobbyist I don't want to participate in that. However there are also many non-military uses such as environmental surveilance, search and rescue etc.

Michael
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 05:31 AM
Sticky Shepherd
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Oxford/England
Joined May 2001
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Bill, you may have been watching a little too much CSI I don't think you would see a great deal.

Graham
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 06:14 AM
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aerogel's Avatar
Land of cajuns
Joined Dec 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epilot
I am have mixed feelings about MAVs. A lot of the development is clearly centered around military uses and as a hobbyist I don't want to participate in that. However there are also many non-military uses such as environmental surveilance, search and rescue etc.

Michael
Michael I agree....I have been working on Hydrogen Peroxide Engines
I even have a Ducted Fan Version of one
the Engines are Molded ceramics, Silver Screens, hypodermic tubing. I use a distillation process that yields 90% to 99% H2o2 military grade… Mixed with kerosene all under pressure. The thrust, weight and long burn time’s blows away Batteries and Dc Motors...
But this is all so extremely dangerous and I will not post how to…
I even have problem’s posting how to build gas torpedo’s in another hobby just because It’s pressurized..

As for weapon systems I have come up with some real nasty Idea’s and some life safety One’s. I just don’t think this is the place to discuss them Because of the High liability,youth and the Darwin effect..

aerogel
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 08:12 AM
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Akron/Canton, Ohio, United States
Joined Aug 2004
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well, i think one project that would be neat would be having a small payload that could be dropped... just a little plastic bomb or something... i dunno, trying to think of something it can do to seperate it from the 'micro model' description, without spending rather large amounts of money. or, maybe that is what it is all about. even if i did have the money, i dont think i would really want to spend some $300 or more on a video system that could be ruined in half a second by a bad crash, or get stuck in a tree, or...

but, i cant think of any 'real' survailance or anything of that nature that could be accomplished without spending alot of money.

beano
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Old Aug 10, 2005, 08:54 AM
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Land of cajuns
Joined Dec 2001
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How about one of them Estes rocket cam's or just some kind of on on board cam...not wireless...not expensive could save lots of weight and battery power..
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