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Old Apr 20, 2002, 08:24 PM
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Lakewood, Ca.
Joined Sep 2001
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F4 Phantom crash! photo

Anyone seen the crash of the F4 phantom over the point mugu air show this weekend?

This saturday a set of f4 phantom and f14 tomcat was doing a low fly-by diamond formation over point mugu airshow. each plane banked right one-by-one w/their after burners on and doing a nine G turn. The last F4 banked w/after burners, but only one lit up. The other engine puffed a white smoked then the whole engine shut down. The F4 was flying about 100 to 150 feet of the ground heading away from the crowd. Right when the plane started wobbling to stall the pilot ejected, but the other co-pilot did not eject (dual seat f4 phantom). A ball of fire lit up when the plane hit the ground.

It was a horrific sight to see. We hear jet planes go down over the news and never think about it too much, but when your in front of the actual thing happening, it's just heart breaking. My wife was crying when the whole thing occured.

below is a picture of the F4 seconds after it hit the ground.
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Old Apr 20, 2002, 08:29 PM
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Lakewood, Ca.
Joined Sep 2001
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F4 phantom crash

Heres one more picture of the F4 flying over the crowd seconds before it had it's mishap. notice the f14 is banking to right, and the other f14 was next. my prayers are w/the families of the pilots.
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 02:50 AM
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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I've moved this thread here, because it is off-topic for the Open Dicussion forum where it was posted.

It is very sad and a horrible stunning experience when you are close to an aeroplane crash at a display. My own personal view is that in the case of a fatal accident I wouldn't put up a picture of the fireball myself- after all there is a man dying in that fireball. I'd have to say that I have never been one to see pictures of aircraft crashing on the news without giving it a second thought- I pretty much always think about the crew and their families. That is just my personal opinion.

My condolences go out to the pilot and his family.

Brian
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 09:53 AM
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Larry Dudeck's Avatar
Williamsville, NY, USA
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I'm of the opinion government sponsored 'air shows' are a tremendous waste of taxpayers money. As the above posts indicate, stupidly dangerous as well.

Flying any aircraft at low altitudes, whether it is a Cessna 150 or an F4, is inherently dangerous. As a student pilot I've been taught very early on to maintain the correct attitude of the plane, especially on take off and in the landing pattern. No GA pilot in his right mind would put an aircraft into a 60+ degree bank at an altitude of 200 feet. At this altitude the pilot has no way out.

If the F4 was on a routine flight at altitude, the loss of an engine would not be fatal. The pilot would have analyzed the situation, determined the cause, followed the prescribed check list for an 'engine out event' and proceeded to either land safely or bail out. He would not have died and probably would have saved the aircraft as well.

Imagine the aftermath of this crash if the plane would have hit the ground amidst the spectators or came down in a residential neighborhood.

This crash was a totally avoidable, absolutely sensless, stupid waste of a life.
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 11:43 AM
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Sparky Paul's Avatar
Palmdale, CA
Joined Oct 2000
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As this is the first fatal at Mugu in 39 years, it's not something anyone would expect.
The Mugu show is the best I've been to. Airplanes, big noisy loud weapons-firing airplanes right up close! Not a "safe" mile away!
They get -this- taxpayer's money!
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 01:14 PM
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United States, OR, Corvallis
Joined Nov 1998
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Larry,

Airshows are the only chance the public has to review the hardware their tax dollars have purchased.

Military pilots perform maneuvers like that all the time in training and/or combat. Its part of the job. If they do it once or twice a year in front of spectators its only to demonstrate the kind of capability we bring to a theater of war.

Since WWII the US public has grown very much ignorant of what their fighting force is capable of. All of our engagements are remote. If we knew what we could do the press wouldn't be able to confuse us into believing we were going to get slaughtered by the Iraqi Republican Guard and by the Afghanis.

I remember one time at Offutt an A-10 came through and did some tight combat turns over the runway, like there was an enemy tank parked there. It scared me to death. I can't imagine what it would be like to be on the receiving end of that plane's weaponry. At one point it turned and pointed at my position. The thought of what it must be like to face that plane while on the open sand was terrifying. That perspective is a critical piece of data when the citizenry is effecting policy through votes.

Jim
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 01:33 PM
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Palmdale, CA
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My take on the F4 crash: The left engine failed. Parts from it took out the right engine. The hydraulics failed.. note the slight pitch nose-up .. then "eject, eject, eject".. but without zero-zero seats, not a chance.
Rest assured the EPA will be on the Navy's ass for fouling the wildlife refuge with JP-4 and airplane parts.
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 04:23 PM
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Williamsville, NY, USA
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'That perspective is a critical piece of data when the citizenry is effecting policy through votes'.


Do you really think we, as voters, have a whole lot to say about military 'policy'. Somehow I think the lobbyists for the aircraft manufacturers have a just little more impact than your vote or mine.
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 04:50 PM
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flyfalcons's Avatar
Bonney Lake, WA
Joined Jan 2002
788 Posts
The military also does that to bolster recruitment, gain interest, etc. Ever since the crash of the Frecci Tricolori (spelling?), airshows have become much safer for the spectators due to the flight restrictions imposed, but it is still heartbreaking to hear about any tragedy such as this one.
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Old Apr 21, 2002, 06:12 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio USA
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I have gone to the Dayton (Ohio) Airshow for YEARS & have never seen a crash of any kind. These crashes are quite rare but do happen occasionally. It is important for the Public to see & be awed by what they see, it's a History lesson in one afternoon. Where else can you see a B-17 & a Lancaster do a slow Flyby & 10 Minutes later see a F-117 Stealth Fighter Roar by? These airshows are wonderfull for Air Force, Navy & Marines Recruiting & A delight for those who attend & drive hundreds of Miles to see them, they are Awesome.
I always shake my head whenever I hear of a crash like this because all the Naysayers crawl out of the woodwork proclaiming that the Airshows should be shut down, it happens everytime.

-Mike-
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Last edited by Mark Wood; Apr 22, 2002 at 10:22 AM.
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Old Apr 22, 2002, 09:07 AM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Illinois
Joined Sep 2001
25,221 Posts
Anybody know where we can get more info on this? CNN.COM has nothing about it, nor YAHOO.

It's always sad to hear of deaths, and I hope I never witness an aircraft crash, but we will continue to go to airshows to enjoy the time as a family among something we all like to see.

Next stop is Reading, PA June 7-9 for a WWII weekend.

Andy
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Old Apr 22, 2002, 11:19 AM
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Palmdale, CA
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I did a quick search with Google...
Here's a local story..http://www.insidevc.com/vcs/county_n...101166,00.html
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Old Apr 22, 2002, 11:33 AM
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West of California Speedway, East of LaLa, North of Disneyland
Joined May 2001
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Sparky Paul, et al

That was a privately owned duck hunting preserve the QF-4 (drone a/c) went down in. I'm sure that the owner has insurance. He'd be crazy not to being adjacent to a military airport (oops, the Navy calls them air stations!!).

Regarding the public display of military capabilities: the public has every right to witness what the military can do. What would be wrong is if it was all done in secret........

Years ago, I saw the SR-71 fly at the now-closed Norton AFB. That was the most awesome display of raw power one could witness short of an up-close volcano eruption or standing at the epicenter of a 9.0 earthquake. When the pilot nailed the throttles to the wall, and those diamond-shaped shock wave/flame fronts lit up, the ground shook like I've never felt it before. And I've been right next to jet fighters scrambling at takeoff!!!
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Old Apr 22, 2002, 12:40 PM
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Palmdale, CA
Joined Oct 2000
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Jim, the photo of the SR I attached came from an '80s airshow at Mugu... Somewhere I have a movie of its departure pass when the burners lit.., where you can hear one guy say... "GAWD.. you see the FAHR comin' out of that thang?????!!!"
Where else can you hear what a Gatling gun sounds like for real, or see a Sidewinder at work, or Zuni rockets... My kinda airshow!
And of course the Blue Angels demonstrated why Navy pilots are the best in the world AND airshow business!
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Old Apr 22, 2002, 08:58 PM
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Walled Lake, MI, USA
Joined Feb 2000
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Larry, just consider that someday someone will use your very words to tell you how dangerous and useless R/C flying is. "You could kill someone with one of those things, and they serve no useful purpose."

There are a lot of things that other people do that I personally don't think are worth the risk. However, in the interests of protecting a free and open society where rational, consenting adults are allowed the freedom to choose what they believe is best for them within the limits of the law, I defend everyone's right to make those choices without outside interference.

If everyone votes to shut down everyone else's risky endeavor, we might just as well lock everyone in padded cells so no one ever gets hurt, and we'll all die of old age and boredom.
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