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Old Mar 20, 2006, 02:32 PM
Got shenpa?
flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Los Angeles
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig
Despite using brushless power, he actually consumed more battery power per flight minute (Don't forget that my model is a lot lighter).
Didn't have time to double check your numbers, but we have no reason to believe Jeremy was flying in the same way you did. "Half throttle" is a rather loose term, not to mention it varies from one transmitter model to another and one ESC to another - some ESC's have a very non-linear throttle curve, in my experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig
There is no way you can fly approx. 50 mph at half throttle with this setup.
Certainly. There is no way you can fly approx 50 mph at half throttle with the stock setup, either. (Edit: I initially typed "There is no way you can fly approx 50 mph with the stock setup, either." That was a typo: I meant "at half throttle".)

-Flieslikeabeagle
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 02:43 PM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagl
...

Certainly. There is no way you can fly approx 50 mph with the stock setup, either.
-Flieslikeabeagle
The radar gun speed measurements were done at our local flying field. The man at the gun was Mike K., also known as EasyStern in this forum, and I have no reason to question his results.

Jürgen
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagl
...
There is no way you can fly approx 50 mph with the stock setup, either.
-Flieslikeabeagle
If you find this figure hard to believe, try running some figures through MotoCalc yourself - you might learn something from the exercise.

Jürgen
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 04:25 PM
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just a hint

Just a suggestion to *some* of the guys on this thread: what about PM or IRC for the ultimate 'battle of the titans' for *some* of the discussions that are going on for too long now?

Disclaimer: this is of course just my personal opinion, I am not representing others here! Of course, I could just unsubscribe to this thread, but I would not like to miss all the other very interesting contributions you ALL (!!) are making!

Have Fun,

Richard
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 04:59 PM
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United States, AZ, Tucson
Joined Jun 2004
187 Posts
No more MPX

Heilig please inform MPX that you drove another customer away . I can't understand why you are so hard headed about this plane , 51 oz weight off there web site , also under 400 premax 6v list max current @8 amp and max efficiency @3.5 amps . Do the math thats 153.6 watts at 100% efficiency as per the site for a 3.187 lb aircraft thats 48 watts per lb @ 100% =50 mph . If this is wrong you need to have MPX change there specs . MPX must give you lots free kits to print this type of information, tell your dog jcosta to not tag team so much it's getting real old . NO MPX KITS EVEN IF THERE FREE !!! Dan
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 05:24 PM
SlopeHead
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined Jan 2004
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Jürgen


As the thread creator I don't know if you can lock it or not, but if I were you I'd definitely create a new thread for people who are really interested in the TS2 and who do want to fly it as they please, instead of people who keep calling everyone else liars all the time.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 06:17 PM
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Norway
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Hi all - PLEASE let this thread get back to what we really are talking/discussing about, the TSII. Talking for myself I am trying to learn something and appreciate an adult discussion on the way to the solution, but we do not need to get unfriendly to one another. It is alright not to share other peoples view of things, but that is not a good enough reason to be sarcastic and unfriendly. Remember most of us are using this forum to learn and to share the experiences we have had in this great hobby. It seems like many have forgotten this lately.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 08:21 PM
sensitive artsy type
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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Well, personally, I see this as a high level debate. It is just getting good. I don't think anyone is angry, with the exception of jcosta, , but he can handle it, he's been through worse, like almost getting glued to a table in Switzerland.

I don't think there is any namecalling going on*, and there is certainly bandwith available for whoever wants to post on the TSII experience.

There are people with deeply held convictions here, at least it is not religion or politics, it is interesting some of the arguements being made, as they are a higher level than my knowledge, so I am learning something.

On the other hand, those who post things like Multiplex is no good, are not adding anything to the thread, just like those in the GWS threads that get so wacky.

*So FX2, maybe you should edit your post, calling someone a dog is against the forum rules, you obviously have no interest in MPX planes so you are trolling as well. tt
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 09:24 PM
SlopeHead
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetop
Well, personally, I see this as a high level debate. It is just getting good. I don't think anyone is angry, with the exception of jcosta, , but he can handle it, he's been through worse, like almost getting glued to a table in Switzerland.
tt,
Have you ever had a nasty experience related to your bushy beard and a pair of tweezers?
And if you think I'm angry, I bet Jürgen is angrier than me, he's just too polite to show it.
Someday I'll go to an F3B contest in Germany and I'll arrange a meeting with Jürgen so we can both fly our Mini Pipers... Of course, those have Speed 300 motors so they can't fly according to the laws of the Universe.
Although I bet he'll be just like Splash99 and hide all his models just before I arrive... the female models, that is.

Speaking of Splash, just used a whole bottle of thin CA on a wing from an F3B plane that had an immediate encounter of the first degree with mother Earth. And I've got nothing glued appart from the wing pieces (and before you ask, it's not mine, it belongs to a friend and he bought it in this condition).
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 09:30 PM
Hold my beer and watch this!
Jeremy Z's Avatar
Northern IL
Joined Oct 2005
2,380 Posts
Post #1:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig, post 1636
Hi guys,

Lets stick with reality rather than using motor calculators which are even worse than MotoCalc.

Jürgen
Post #2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig, post 1648
Flight time of the stock TS II with a 2s1p Kokam 3200mAh was 20 minutes which equals to an average current of just 4.5A per motor.

Assuming an average voltage of 7V, I was flying the TS II on 7Vx9A=54W

Jeremys brushless version flew for 31 minutes on an 8 cell 3600mAh pack, which equals to an average current of 3.5A per motor.

Assuming an average voltage of 8.8V, he was flying the TS II on 8.8x7A=61.6W

Despite using brushless power, he actually consumed more battery power per flight minute (Don't forget that my model is a lot lighter).

We measured the Top Speed of a TwinStar II on 8 cells at 79km/h in horizontal flight with a radar gun. That's close to 50mph.

I measured 8.8V - 25.6A - 14520rpm on the stock props. That equals a pitch speed of 26.62m/s or 59.6mph (static). That is a pretty nice pitch speed to achieve approx. 50mph in flight.

Jeremy used two brushless outrunners and APC 7x5" props. Using the data found at www.allerc.com:

8.82V - 24.6A - 10560rpm. That equals a pitch speed of 22m/s or 49.2mph (static).

There is no way you can fly approx. 50 mph at half throttle with this setup.

Jürgen
Can this be the same Jürgen???!!! Hehehe, just fooling around, Old Boy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig
Are you sure that you are not exaggerating a bit here?
OK, maybe a bit. Let me re-phrase it and say it feels as fast at half throttle as the stocker did at full throttle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig
Your average amps at your maiden were approx. 7A (for both motors) at your maiden, provided that you flew your pack until it was empty.
OK, you're starting to make assumptions now. Remember that my brushless motors were probably around 92% (guessing, as they were hardly breaking a sweat, and they are inrunners) efficiency at half throttle, while the (overloaded) speed 400s were probably at about 30-40% efficiency at full throttle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig
Faster at half throttle than with the brushed motors at full throttle? Brushless motors are more efficient - but not that much more.
I would bet that at 49 mph (the top speed of the stock setup) the brushless motors are easily twice as efficient as the speed 400s, which are being thrashed pretty hard at that point...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig
But the main thing is ... that you enjoy your model. Wtach out if your wings are bending.
...and you are sure right on that one. It is amazing how much they bend in a big loop! But I don't do that many loops in this bird. There is really no point. It is so rewarding to just cruise fast... Stall turns, the occasional big & gentle loops, and low altitude antics are the most fun with this plane. You have discovered this too, if your videos are any indication.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jürgen Heilig
You use a very heavy battery pack, and you have weakend your wing by putting the ESC in a high stress area.
This assumes that I just cut the foam out and left the cavity empty. In reality, I cut the foam out and put something stiffer in its place, at least with the ESCs. Also, the ESCs are in the part of the wing that is reinforced with the spar, so it is no big deal.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dshakes
...Just one thing I think is missing from this beautiful model. Landing gear!...
Well, I beg to differ here. The lack of landing gear is one of the reasons this big brute of a plane is able to fly so fast. A smooth belly-landing is a thing of beauty Dionysios! (especially in the snow, with packing tape on the bottom of the fuselage; it skis forEVER)



Quote:
Originally Posted by OneDayFly
...Just a suggestion to *some* of the guys on this thread: what about PM or IRC for the ultimate 'battle of the titans' for *some* of the discussions that are going on for too long now? ...
I have been promoted to "Titan"?? Excellent. That's got to be a few pay grades up from "Peon".




Quote:
Originally Posted by OneDayFly
...Of course, I could just unsubscribe to this thread, but I would not like to miss all the other very interesting contributions you ALL (!!) are making...
Absolutely not. Poor Robert Stinson. He should have grabbed his popcorn and pulled up a (computer) chair. Just watch... I'm about to get jcosta all revved up again. (just kidding)



Quote:
Originally Posted by fx-2
Heilig please inform MPX that you drove another customer away . I can't understand why you are so hard headed about this plane , 51 oz weight off there web site , also under 400 premax 6v list max current @8 amp and max efficiency @3.5 amps . Do the math thats 153.6 watts at 100% efficiency as per the site for a 3.187 lb aircraft thats 48 watts per lb @ 100% =50 mph . If this is wrong you need to have MPX change there specs . MPX must give you lots free kits to print this type of information, tell your dog jcosta to not tag team so much it's getting real old . NO MPX KITS EVEN IF THERE FREE !!! Dan
So Jürgen drove you away because the TS2 will do 50 mph?




Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Hi all - PLEASE let this thread get back to what we really are talking/discussing about, the TSII...
Your wish is my command, my well-tempered friend.



Jürgen, I would love to get a radar gun on the TS2. I suspect that your 49 mph run had a slight tailwind and a loss of elevation, but if you insist it was kosher, I believe you. It is a pretty fast plane, as clunky as it looks.

Since you got the plane for free, why not drop a couple hundred dollars (164.28 EUR) into it and make it a real flyer? See for yourself, with your own eyes, what I'm talking about.

Here are my facts:
  • My TwinStar 2 didn't climb very well originally. It climbs well now at 45° now, for a good while. (it won't climb like that forever, as it is heavy)
  • My TwinStar 2 didn't fly in wind very well originally either. With the extra power, speed, thrust, and weight, it is now a great windy-day flyer. That alone is worth the price of admission!
  • When I need to climb 30 m, it is only a matter of pushing the throttle stick forward, and pulling just slightly on the elevator stick. Think it, and it's done. I never needed or wanted to use full throttle for more than a couple seconds.
  • It won't climb vertically.
  • It will maintain extreme bank angles without stalling, because it's going fast and carries enough inertia to generate some good centripital force. As a matter of fact, it tends to bank a bit too steeply, if you're not gentle.
  • With the extra speed & prop wash, I needed to set my low rates to about 50%, with -20% expo to keep it smooth. I only go to high rates for landing, after I cut the motors.
  • The whine of the brushless motors make it sound a bit like a turboprop, which adds to the scale appeal.
  • If you use spoilerons instead of flaperons, you can compensate manually easily enough. (instead of having to mix up elevator in with the flaperons)
  • It's hard to put a finger on why, but it is a LOT more fun to fly now. I think it must be all the extra thrust.
  • When I pick up this plane after my EasyStar or EasyGlider Electric, it is immediately apparent that this is a dense & heavy plane. But once it gets up to about 25-30 mph, you'd never know it. It is just so smooth.
  • This plane is easily faster than my brushless Formosa. (the Formosa is 16 oz, running on a 3S 1320 mAh LiPo, with a Himax 2812-0850) The Formosa is no slouch, so that is saying something.
  • If I had to throw away 10 of my planes and only keep one, the TS2 would be the keeper. It's got a bit of everything good. It glides well, its fast, smooth, and very graceful.
  • Forgive me for not having numbers handy to back this up, but when I was doing some basic static testing, I noticed that the current at half throttle was less than half of the full throttle current.
Try it Jürgen, iceman, jcosta, and flieslikeabeagl. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you all a beer and offer my sincere apologies. I know, that's a bum deal, but deep down, you want to do it anyway, right? It really is a night/day difference.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 09:59 PM
sensitive artsy type
Treetop's Avatar
Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
3,168 Posts
Quote:
Have you ever had a nasty experience related to your bushy beard and a pair of tweezers? - jcosta
No, did have a small fire there once, no damage though.

I glued my finger to my thumb with thin CA, I avoid that thin stuff unless it is absolutely necessary. The debonder takes forever to work, by the way.

===================

Good post Jeremy.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 10:01 PM
SlopeHead
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined Jan 2004
2,882 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
Here are my facts:[list][*]My TwinStar 2 didn't climb very well originally. It climbs well now at 45° now, for a good while. (it won't climb like that forever, as it is heavy)[*]My TwinStar 2 didn't fly in wind very well originally either. With the extra power, speed, thrust, and weight, it is now a great windy-day flyer. That alone is worth the price of admission![*]When I need to climb 30 m, it is only a matter of pushing the throttle stick forward, and pulling just slightly on the elevator stick. Think it, and it's done. I never needed or wanted to use full throttle for more than a couple seconds.[*]It won't climb vertically.[*]It will maintain extreme bank angles without stalling, because it's going fast and carries enough inertia to generate some good centripital force. As a matter of fact, it tends to bank a bit too steeply, if you're not gentle.
Here I am rising to the challenge!

OK, I believe all of it. But we both know that there was some problem with your original setup. Either the props, or the brushed ESC, whatever.

My TS2 on 8 cells needs down elevator compensation to fly over half
throttle, otherwise it points it's nose up and climbs at close to 45º.

With some speed it can climb vertically about 20 meters or so, enough to do a stall turn.

I fully agree on the bank angles, it can turn like a pylon racer, just bank and yank, and it hardly looses any altitude. I've done a few knife edge passes and it works OK. Probably because the fuse and the fin are quite high.

I fly slope with my TS2 and turn on the motors to fly against 20-25 mph winds without any problem.

I am happy that you have found a solution that pleases you to the original problems you had with your TS2.

See??? There are some basic reasons why I can accept your ideas and you can accept mine:

1 - Most relevant - we both have flown the plane so we both know precisely what the other is talking about

2 - No dogmas - I am perfectly willing to accept that your stock version, contrary to mine, didn't fly very well, you are perfectly willing to accept that there probably was some problem with your stock version and that mine flies well.
I am also perfectly willing to accept that changing to brushless has solved whatever problems you had and that you are now as happy with the performance of your plane as I am with mine.

3 - You accept any disagreement in good spirits and some humour and that, of course, requires the same sort of behaviour from me.

4 - We both want to fly the TS2 to have fun!
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Last edited by jcosta; Mar 20, 2006 at 10:04 PM. Reason: spelling, doh!
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 10:13 PM
SlopeHead
jcosta's Avatar
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined Jan 2004
2,882 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetop
No, did have a small fire there once, no damage though.

I glued my finger to my thumb with thin CA, I avoid that thin stuff unless it is absolutely necessary. The debonder takes forever to work, by the way.

===================

Good post Jeremy.
Aha, "you there smoking Mother Nature" (The Who, "Tommy", most of you are to young to remember...).

Now I know why you take forever to build a simple plane - you wait for the debonder to work after you glue your fingers.

Now for some technical goodies: I use very thin CA because in most molded wing repairs it is common to have the carbon fiber wing skin separating from the material it was laminated with - usually either balsa or special foams called herex or rohacell - and the thin CA can wick through the carbon fiber and stick everything back together again, which is what gives rigidity to the skin. When you squeeze a damaged molded wing in some spots it feels squishy, that is where you will find delaminations.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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Yep, thin CA certainly has its uses, however, it took me glueing my finger to my thumb to realise that it is so thin, you can't feel it running down your hand.

Quote:
Now I know why you take forever to build a simple plane
No you are assuming again, however, if it were 20 years ago . . .

I could make assumptions about why you are in such a hurry, like, too much espresso?

tt
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 12:50 AM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fx-2
Heilig please inform MPX that you drove another customer away . I can't understand why you are so hard headed about this plane , 51 oz weight off there web site , also under 400 premax 6v list max current @8 amp and max efficiency @3.5 amps . Do the math thats 153.6 watts at 100% efficiency as per the site for a 3.187 lb aircraft thats 48 watts per lb @ 100% =50 mph . If this is wrong you need to have MPX change there specs . MPX must give you lots free kits to print this type of information, tell your dog jcosta to not tag team so much it's getting real old . NO MPX KITS EVEN IF THERE FREE !!! Dan
Hi Dan,

I see in your profile that you listed flieslikeabeagle as your friend. That explains some of it. (In contrary, I don't even know jcosta, apart from his contributions here in the forums).

I am not hard headed at all about the TS II, but if a person continuously denies, that it flies very well in stock form, I don't keep my mouth shut (especially when in the contrary I have plenty of videos and hundreds of witnesses to proof it ).

The data on the Multiplex site about their Permax 400 is actually not correct. You can see, that they use the same data for the Permax 400, 6V and the 7.2V version.

Jürgen
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