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Old Mar 12, 2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagl
...
Due to the poor efficiency of the stock motors, the actual power making it to the props at WOT will be only 45% of 168 W, or about 75W. The 400XT's run at about 75% efficiency WOT, so 75% of 200 W will make it to the props - that's 150W, or 200% more than the stock setup!
...
-Flieslikeabeagle
It starts getting annoying. How often do you need to be reminded, that in normal cruise, the stock motors of the Twin Star II run at close to 70% efficiency. The worst case scenario with only 45% efficiency (static condition) will only last seconds.

Jürgen
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 03:16 PM
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It starts getting annoying for me, too. You've made your argument that low efficiency is good enough many times. It doesn't get any more plausible on repetition.

It does not make any sense to me to have a power system that runs at 45% efficiency, wasting precious energy, at precisely those moments when the pilot most needs full power to the props.

The seatbelts in your car are only needed during that critical second when you're involved in a collision. Does that mean its okay if they only half-work when you need them?

And now I'm off to work on my TS-II some more. Looks like its going to rain - again - and I may not get to go flying today, so I guess I'll have to settle for building.

-Flieslikeabeagle
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 03:35 PM
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig
It starts getting annoying. How often do you need to be reminded, that in normal cruise, the stock motors of the Twin Star II run at close to 70% efficiency. The worst case scenario with only 45% efficiency (static condition) will only last seconds.

Jürgen
Jürgen


Have a look at flieslikeabeagle's web site. He practically only has GWS planes. That explains a lot, namely his incapacity to believe that a plane can fly well on the stock motors. We must all have some patience for the victims of Mr. Lin...
He does not know how a GOOD plane flies...
His TS2 will always fly nose up hanging on the props because that is the way he learned how to fly and he does not believe that it can be flown differently... He will probably also never fly it more than 50 meters or so away from him, which will lead to crashes and badmouthing Multiplex.
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 04:56 PM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
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Quote:
The seatbelts in your car are only needed during that critical second when you're involved in a collision. Does that mean its okay if they only half-work when you need them? beagle
Not that I want any part of this spat. But I think you dismiss Jurgens point about normal flying getting 70% efficiency too readily. Using WOT as a benchmark is not realistic, unless that is the type of flying you do. To each his own, as they say. A better analogy might be when driving your car at 50 mph, you get efficiency, and when putting the gas pedal to the floor for quick acceleration, the efficiency drops. Unless you are racing, normal driving requires little of the pedal to the floor driving.

Not to get too pointed either, is the inclusion of the cost of 480 motors in the cost analysis. The speed 400s can be used with the stock gunther props, or they can be geared.

One thing also ignored here is brushless on NIMH. For those like me who are Lipo scared.

So your set up is quite reasonable: $133

Stock, I can get a nice 30 amp ESC for brushed: $25, good for 30 amp with 40 amp surge:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...8&I=LXGFN6&P=K

Or a 40 amp kontronik:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXGFN5&P=K

gearboxes, MPJ planetary for $23 each:

http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopdi...rboxes+%2D+400

So my point is, whatever is right for you (the collective you) is what is right. No need to sell the idea to others, as they will choose what is right for them. Opinions from all around seem to based on experience with only one set up. Arguing that one set up is better all around than another set up cannot be concluded without side by side analysis. Projections can be made and are. But one person may be happy with one set up and given another they may not like it for personal reasons.

So making the TSII a four engine plane, (seen this done with the TSI) or a tri motor or whatever is a matter of personal taste. Let's try and stop the bickering and stick to talking about flying and appreciate all the setups, even if we disagree with the efficiency or necessity. It just leads to further bad feelings.

Good night and good luck!

tt
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 07:12 PM
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Lisboa, Portugal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetop
So my point is, whatever is right for you (the collective you) is what is right. No need to sell the idea to others, as they will choose what is right for them. Opinions from all around seem to based on experience with only one set up. Arguing that one set up is better all around than another set up cannot be concluded without side by side analysis.
Treetop

I agree with the first two sentences I have quoted.

However I must disagree about experience with only one setup, both Jürgen and I have extensive experience with brushed and brushless setups for several planes. I've even flown recently a TS2 that CAN hover. Take off was putting it vertical and going full throttle.
I've even flown a brushless EasyStar (and hated it).

The issue is not if one setup is better than the other. I am perfectly happy with the stock TS2 for the kind of flying I want from it, my friend who has the vertical take off TS2 is perfectly happy with his. I even enjoyed flying his plane, it was fun, if a bit hectic, but it is not what I want of a TS2, I have other planes for my epinefrine addiction.
But even this friend will tell you that the TS2 flies perfectly well stock, as that is how he flew his until he burned the two Permax 400s as he was using a 3S Lipo pack. It was a conscious decision he took of flying the stock setup until the motors burned off (about 3- 4 months) and then replace them with a hot brushless setup.

There is a big difference between discussing different options for different tastes or preaching that what both Jürgen and I know for a fact is not true.

I would accept Jürgen telling me that a plane would not fly with a given setup, as he is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable e-pilots in Europe and probably in the world.
I am much less experienced and a much worse pilot. However I can fly safely and reasonably well planes that range from an EasyStar to a 2.5m 50cc sailplane tugplane as well as top performance sailplanes being one of the top ten F3F pilots in Portugal. I own and fly both brushed and brushless planes. So I think I have enough experience to dismiss some theories as plain ignorance.

I would be perfectly happy if Flieslikeabeagle would state that he would be happy with his setup and that both Jürgen and I would be happy and have good performance with the stock setup. Unfortunately he is not even experienced enough to do that or to even know what reasonable performance is.
If he is happy with his setup's performance (which he is not, as he has not even tried it), that's fine, and I'm happy for him.
But I am happy with my setup and do not accept the constant nagging that it doesn't work, that it is inefficient, etc. from somebody who has not even tried it.


Now that unpleasant business is dealt with, have you decided to build your TS or buy and build a TS2?
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetop
I think you dismiss Jurgens point about normal flying getting 70% efficiency too readily. Using WOT as a benchmark is not realistic, unless that is the type of flying you do. To each his own, as they say. A better analogy might be when driving your car at 50 mph, you get efficiency, and when putting the gas pedal to the floor for quick acceleration, the efficiency drops. Unless you are racing, normal driving requires little of the pedal to the floor driving.
Fair enough. A restrictive carburetor (or those restrictor plates they use on NASCAR race cars) is certainly a better analogy.

Let's look at something as objective as can be. I looked up the motor constants for the Multiplex Permax 400 6V on the web, and found them at Motocalc.com. They are: Kv = 3026 rpm/V, Io = 0.700 A, Rm = 0.3570 Ohm. I plugged those numbers into a program that calculates the motor performance as a function of current, and I've attached a graph of the results, with the motor run at 7.5 V, representative of a 7-cell pack under light loading (efficiency gets worse as the battery voltage drops, so at WOT when the battery voltage drops below 7.5 V the actual performance will be worse than the graph shows - I wanted to be nice).

On the graph, the dark blue line is motor efficiency. Current is on the X-axis, efficiency on the y-axis, as indicated by the numbers along the left edge of the graph. As you can see, a Multiplex Permax 400 6V motor run on a 7-cell pack never reaches 70% efficiency at any current, it is always worse than that. This motor does barely manage to break 65% efficiency in a tiny window - for currents between about 3A and 5.5 A. The chances that these motors will be in this very small range of current during ordinary flying are not that great.

The motor manages to stay above 60% efficiency over a bit wider range, from about 2.5 A to about 7.5 A. Will most of average flying be within this current range? This time I think there is a good chance that is true. So you might get 60% average efficiency out of the motor for much of the time during typical flight. In other words, 40% of the power from the battery is being wasted as heat in the motors, even during sedate, part-throttle flying.

As you can see, there is considerable room for improvement. And we have not even taken into account the fact that the stock small propellers are inefficient due to their small size, losing about half of the potential thrust that would have been available with bigger propellers.

I agree with you 100% that there are folks who are happy with the stock setup, and that's great. There are those who are not, and for them, there are alternatives.

I have never had a bone to pick with anyone who chooses to fly his or her TS-II stock - that would be ridiculous, this is a hobby, we do this for fun, and fun is subjective. My posts on the twin 400XT setup spell out an alternative powerplant for those who want better-than-stock performance, using very inexpensive brushless motors. From the fact that we've heard from a couple of other folks with 400XT motors in their TwinStar, clearly there are others out there who, like me, want a better-performing power system.

While Jurgen and I have disagreed on some interpretations of technical issues, we've kept it civil, and hopefully presented both sides of the issues to others on the thread. That can only be a good thing.

The thing that bothers me is when, lacking actual facts, one person took to manufacturing "facts" to support his biased opinions, opinions which are apparently based on nothing more than a slavish worship of a specific manufacturers products. That sort of intellectual dishonesty sits very badly with me, especially when it was followed with personal attacks against me.

Way too much negativity here, so let me tell you about something that took some of the bad taste from this thread out of my mouth today. It didn't rain after all, so I packed up a couple of planes and drove to the Rose Bowl. The temperature was in the low 40's (Fahrenheit), freezing cold for us spoiled Los Angeles residents unused to this sort of daytime temperatures. I was surprised and pleased to find no fewer than four of my flying buddies also turned up to fly, despite the cold and wind. We also met a gentleman trying unsuccessfully to fly his first plane, a balsa 3-channel model he'd built from a kit. It turned out he'd made three trips to the 'Bowl on three separate days, and had failed to get his model to fly - he crashed every time he got the thing off the ground.

When I took a close look, I found the elevator pushrod length mis-adjusted, and the rudder servo and motor/gearbox loosened from previous crashes. He also had the rudder on the left stick, and was trying to fly with only the right stick: this is a 3-channel model, remember. He'd been misled by the labels on the Spektum AR6000 receiver (the labels say "throttle", "rudder", etc, but are appropriate for a 4-channel plane with rudder on the left stick, not for a 3-channel plane with rudder on the right stick).

With a little CA, tape, and time, I helped him get everything ship-shape, and maidened the plane for him. It had marginal pitch speed, and inadequate dihedral to turn well (rudder inputs produced almost no roll, and consequently, almost no yaw), but at least it flew - he was thrilled to see it finally in the air!

I suggested he use a prop with more pitch, and that he add tip-plates to the wingtips, angled upwards to give him some polyhedral so the rudder could do its job of turning the plane. And that he download FMS, buy a $20 USB dual joystick game pad, and put in some sim time.

One of my flying buddies then got his Slow Stick up to altitude, and passed the transmitter to the new guy for some stick-time on a plane that wasn't a bear to fly. He would do okay for a few circuits, then start to get into a steepening spiral dive, at which point my buddy would take over the Tx and get the plane back to altitude.

Now that's what this hobby should be about: having some fun, helping out ones fellow modeller, and enjoying the great outdoors in the company of a few flying buddies.

I realize the last few paragraphs have had nothing to do with TwinStars, but I thought it worth sharing something positive rather than all the negativity that has taken over this thread lately.

My thanks to Tree Top, Iceman3, and Spudandretti for their attempts to calm down and turn around negative sentiments on this thread.

Now I'm off to work on my TS-II some more.

-Flieslikeabeagle
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 09:38 PM
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Hey now,
I dunno guys, brushed or brushless she'll fly well sure, but cheap can motors are cheap can motors. If Jurgen says they be at 70% for most of the flight I can't argue, I don't know the math. Still my cheapo BL motors run at 83% and my better ones run in the 90%s. So that's a difference in either power or run time, maybe enough for some of us to notice.

Jcosta? I'm sure you have your reasons for not liking GWS models, but I've had a couple and I didn't keep them close in ("within fifty feet") and they surely didn't hang on the prop through the flight. *I* wouldn't put up with that. (Up with that I would not put?) They can fly well. As I've said before my little Formosa flew just like my much larger Zen and most other current pattern models I've flown.

On the up side: I did manage to get everything preped on my TSII; soldered all the wiring, broke in the motors and timed them (nasty little pegs on the back plates, grrrr.), everything is sanded sommth and ready to glue up and paint. 'though I still don't have a clue about patterns or colours.

Yeah, I haven't gotten much done, we had a BIG LIFT day so I was out flying the U2, Flash II, and Millinium, even smacked some Zagis around for a bit. Gawds it feels good to catch some decent air.

How 'bout we just don't care about what the other guy is powering his TSII with and just build and fly them?
RobII
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 10:08 PM
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Jeremy Z's Avatar
Northern IL
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagl
Jeremy, I haven't heard all that much about you rushing through yours, either! What's the state of your TS-II at the moment?
It's on the bench in the garage, waiting for motors. I burnt up the stock speed 400s by using a 5x5 prop on them with an 8 cell pack. Bill Glover tells me that this setup will draw about 18A per motor. Ouch. I have a wattmeter now, and it won't happen again.


I ordered a couple of RCer 5 turn Warp 4 motors for my TS2:
http://www.allerc.com/product_info.p...oducts_id=1329

They should give me a LOT more thrust than the stock motors did, with larger props, and not sacrifice too much top speed. (check out the data in the PDF link from that page) Not to mention that they won't waste too much power in the form of heat.

They should've arrived Friday evening, but UPS decided to skip my neighborhood, then claim online that they attempted delivery.


In other news, I just finished assembly & maiden of my EasyGlider Electric. It is VERY nice. I'm impressed, and may even become a sailplane guy as a result.


Quote:
Not to bore anyone with details, but in the last few weeks, when I haven't been working or asleep, I've been too exhausted to do any building.
I was just giving you a friendly rib. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. (hard to tell online sometimes)


flieslikeabeagl: for keeping it classy. I for one, read your data-filled posts with great interest since the beginning of this thread. I copied & pasted a lot of your text into Word files for later use.
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
Bill Glover tells me that this setup will draw about 18A per motor. Ouch. I have a wattmeter now, and it won't happen again.
Ouch, indeed. Sorry about the damage, glad you have replacements on the way.

FWIW, if you take a look at the graph I posted above, the green line (power output from the motor), levels off somewhere between 10 A and 11 A, and then actually falls. In other words, once these motors are run beyond about 10.5 A, the harder you run them, the less you get out of them! At the same time, the red curve (heat dissipated in the motor) soars, cooking the poor little beasties.

This is nothing unique, by the way, every motor has some current beyond which its efficiency drops so low that the power output begins to decline even as more power is fed into the motor from the battery, quickly cooking the motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
I ordered a couple of RCer 5 turn Warp 4 motors for my TS2:
Yowza! Up to 18 A, if I'm reading the right row in the table. If you use all the power those motors can put out, you'll have a spectacularly powerful TS-II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
In other news, I just finished assembly & maiden of my EasyGlider Electric. It is VERY nice. I'm impressed, and may even become a sailplane guy as a result.
One of my flying buddies has one, hopped up with a brushless/lipo setup. A very nice flying plane, the only thing he didn't entirely like was the sedate roll rate. Which, to be fair, tends to go with large, high aspect ratio wings like the one on the EasyGlider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
I was just giving you a friendly rib. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. (hard to tell online sometimes)
Thanks for the clarification. I was starting to feel a bit like a blob of hamburger meat on an anthill, just waiting for the next thing to start chewing on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Z
for keeping it classy. I for one, read your data-filled posts with great interest since the beginning of this thread.
Thank you very much, I needed to hear something positive about this whole mess. Appreciate it.

Back to the TS-II for a bit more cutting and soldering...

-Flieslikeagbeagle
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 11:12 PM
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Well, the graph is nice. I don't quite understand what the heat is in relation to (amps?) With a fresh charged 7 cell Kan 1050, I pull about 9 amps on the bench at WOT with the Gunther prop on the speed 400 from Multiplex. With a reverse timed Zagi motor, it only pulls about 8.5 amps, but just from the feel, not from a direct thrust check, the Zagi motor was seemingly providing a little less thrust.

As an aside, as to GWS planes, from the experiences of a couple friends, they tend to require at least having Lipo batteries in order to get any decent performance, as to weight and duration. Those tiny nimh or nicad packs that they can carry just don't have enough mah to keep them in the air long, and also from their experience, if there is a bit of wind, you need some big power. Having said that, a stock slowstick on lipos flies fine, although quite slow. The Corsair my friend has does the same with lipos.

The Multiplex planes are designed aroung the speed 400 and using larger batt packs than the GWS planes it seems. They are not what I would call textbook parkflyers, as they are a bit larger and faster stock. That is why I brought up using brushless on the TS, with Nimh, as it can easily handle the weight, same with the Easy Star, using lipo probably means adding lead to the nose.

So this is all subjective. I think the problem of using two speed controls, which isn't that much of a problem, but if there were a cheap electronic solution that came along, you would probably see a lot more twins being put on the market to take advantage of it.

I think the future is brushless. For some planes, like the Pico Cub, it is an easy choice, and since I have two, will probably go with a gearbox on one, then a brushless on the second. Still using Nimh battery packs. That is one reason I went with Multiplex to begin with was the size is a little more able to fly in some wind, and the build quality, as well as the durability of the elapor. I have witnessed my friends E-starter turn to a bag of chunks on the maiden flight. He bought another one and finally was able to master it. Of course replacing an E-starter is cheap, if you get the slope version. That is an advantage GWS has, especially here in the US, where Multiplex charges as much for a wing and a fuse as you pay for an entire kit, and then they are very hard to find.

My TwinStar will be flown before buying a TS2 jcosta, but I ain't sure what year that might be.

Anyway, it is all good, I even enjoyed flying a 2 channel until I got bored and started to try things that it didn't really want to do, and maybe this is what all the chatter is about. Some might find the stock TSII too boring and realize this without trying it stock, for others, their pulse will be about 180 with it on the first few flights.

Forty degrees, that is cold, it was eighty here the last couple days. It is all relative, I was in Key West in February once and the temp went down in the fifties, the natives were bundled up like eskimoes.

Happy Contrails. tt
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 12:40 AM
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TT, the red curve (like all the others) is plotted against current, along the bottom edge of the graph. If you look at the green numbers along the right edge of the graph, they are in watts and apply to the green and red curves. So, for instance, at about 10 A current, the red line shows about 37 W of heating in the motor. At the same 10 A, the green line shows about 37 W of power output at the motor shaft.

Hey, wait a minute, you say, those are both the same - that means half the power is being wasted, so the motor must be running at 50% efficiency, right? Yes indeedy. If you look at the blue curve, you'll see that indeed it shows 50% efficiency at the same 10 A current. Those blue, green, and red lines in the graph were generated by completely independent calculations, so the fact that the green and red lines cross at the same 10 A current that corresponds to 50% efficiency from the blue line is a nice little self-consistency check.

I agree that GWS planes are much better with lipos - that's how I flew all of mine. I originally used the stock 350 motor, 5.33:1 gearbox, and stock 9x7 GWS RS prop on my E-Starter, powered by a 2000 mAh 2S Kokam pack. Despite the big heavy pack, the plane had enough power for sustained inverted flight - I used to fly inverted circuits and figure-eights over the flying field to practice my inverted flight and co-ordinating the rudder and ailerons while inverted. Loops and rolls from level flight were no problem at all, the rolls requiring a hefty forward push on the right stick as the model rolled inverted.

That same old E-Starter on which I learned to fly ailerons about a year and a half ago recently got pulled out of the closet and received a brushless upgrade: it now has a 400XT outrunner, APC 8x6 TE prop, and a small 3S, 900 mAh lipo pack. It is lighter and more powerful than before, and I was shocked at how much fun I'm still having with the old beater.

I agree that Elapor is far tougher than EPS - I've seen EasyStar's take a pounding that would reduce any GWS plane to styrofoam confetti. The trick to making a GWS plane last, of course, is not to crash. My E-Starter was my third plane and my aileron trainer, and it's still intact and in flying condition over a year and a half after its first flight - though it does have scars from the time I flew it inverted into a tree . I'd used packing tape along the LE of the wings, and that kept them in one piece, albeit with a few dents. My Formosa was my fourth plane - it's a few months younger than the E-Starter - and has never been crashed, though I managed to ruin it by leaving it in my car on a hot day.

The Formosa had a brushless Himax 2015/4100, 5.33:1 gears, and APC 9x7.5 SF prop, and was powered by an 1800 mAh 3S Polyquest lipo pack. It had unlimited vertical - I used to release it from my right hand pointed upwards at about 80 degrees, pull to vertical as soon as it got some speed, and do vertical rolls straight up to flying altitude. Fun!

The pico Moth had the stock motor/gearbox/prop, and ran off a small 2S, 650 mAh lipo pack, enough for 30 minute flights, with enough power for ROG's and touch-n-goes, but not much more than that.

I've got some good news on my TS-II build, I'll start over with a fresh post to avoid cluttering up this one.

-Flieslikeabeagle
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 12:56 AM
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Well, I decided to wire up my Twinstar II without using the switching ParkBEC (I'm saving it for a plane I want to fly on a 4S lipo pack). To avoid having the BECs in the Thunderbird 18 overheat, I wanted to split up the load, so that one of the two BEC's would power the two aileron servos, while the other powered the receiver, and through it, the rudder and elevator servos. This required some tricky wiring, but I got it figured out.

I will be flying this model with a Spektrum 2.4 GHz DX-6 transmitter, because the Rose Bowl has proven to be a treacherous place to fly with the limitations of our conventional 72 MHz RC equipment. The Spektrum, unfortunately, has only 6 channels, and limited mixing capabilities. So I decided to run both aileron servos off one channel, and also both ESC's (throttle) from one channel, rather than try to set up mixes. That made the wiring even trickier. When I was done, I was staring at this rats nest of wires - three each from two servos and two speed controls, so 12 wires in total, not counting four more wires to feed battery power to the two ESC's (take a look at the attached picture).

The good news? I plugged in a lipo pack, bound the receiver to the transmitter (Spektrum receivers have to be "told" which transmitter to listen to, after which they ignore all other transmitters - hence no more shoot-downs from someone else turning on on your channel), and was gratified to hear the two Thunderbird 18 ESC's beep out the cell count on the lipo pack, then emit the little tune that signifies they were armed and ready to run. I moved the right stick - and the aileron servos moved as they should. I advanced the throttle gingerly - and both motors kicked, then started to spin. Yippee, it all works!

Take a look at the attached pic, and you can see all those bits of blue heatshrink where I soldered wires together. The black rectangular thing is the Spektrum AR6000 receiver - all that mess of wiring occupies only two channels on it, throttle and aileron. The white area below it is the pocket I cut out of the foam wing to hold the receiver and some of the wiring clutter.

Time to head for bed - gotta wake up and go to work tomorrow!

-Flieslikeagbeagle
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfwreck

How 'bout we just don't care about what the other guy is powering his TSII with and just build and fly them?
RobII
That is just the issue, I've been flying mine for more than 6 months...

P.S. - We had some wind but the lift was patchy, I did manage to be clocked 49 seconds in an F3F training, with no ballast, nobody else beat that time.
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 01:42 AM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
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Quote:
I will be flying this model with a Spektrum 2.4 GHz DX-6 transmitter- fla beagle
I have had my eye on one of those, can use it for surface as well. Look forward to your review. tt
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetop
I have had my eye on one of those, can use it for surface as well. Look forward to your review. tt
Here we go again like in the EasyStar threads. The TS2 needs, just like the EasyStar, a full range TX/RX system. The Spektrum DX is strictly for park flyer range.

I think I wrote something a few posts earlier about trying to fly the TS2 at 50m distance or less. QED...
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