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Old May 28, 2005, 03:43 PM
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United States, CA, Garden Grove
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Need Help, Flying A VK .60-Size Sopwith Camel

This is a large 3rd hand model that I tried to fly a couple a year ago with stall/crash from low altitude "maiden" flight. BTW, to get this turkey balanced, I had to mount four D-size nicads as the flight pack in front of firewall in an inverted "U" around the engine. Balance was correct, power with K&B Sportster .65 seemed adequate. Wings were not warped and everything looked airworthy.

Took off from asphalt began slow climb, attempted to turn to right at about 75 feet , seemed to veer right and arc over in a curving dive to the right but could not seem to level wings and maintain altitude. Instead of steel rigging wire I used heavy monofiliment that was somewhat stretchy but I doubt whether wings flexed much during slow climb and attempt at a turn.

Perhaps I should have started the turn with rudder instead of ailerons or vice versa, can't remember what I did. Any piloting or other recommendations for the next try from those who have flown the VK Camel or similar would be appreciated.
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Old May 29, 2005, 10:03 AM
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I have a VK Camel in the box that is to become an electric project, but I did fly a friend's VK Camel many years ago.

Two things about this particular aircraft: First, the flying wires are meant to be functional. That is, the design of the wings is not sufficiently stiff to hold everything in position without real wire flying wires. Your monofilament line isn't going to do the job. In fact, it is likely letting the wings flex so much that incidences are changing inflight, and/or making the ailerons ineffective.

Second, this planes NEEDS rudder to initiate turns. I was having trouble turning at first when I flew my friend's Camel. It would just skid around and get all out of shape on ailerons/elevator alone. He told me the same thing I am saying here. Start the turn with rudder, and then feed in a bit of aileron as necessary, but do the majority of your turning on rudder. I would mix rudder with aileron and put it on a switch if it were me, and if your radio is capable of it. It makes coordinating the two controls somewhat easier, as it's kind of foreign feeling to most of us to turn with rudder on a four channel ship.

Good luck. Fix those flying wires before something awful happens to this beauty of a plane.

Rick
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Old May 29, 2005, 10:54 AM
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Boise Id
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I agree with Rick, additionally, the monofiliment will not just sit there and act like solid wire, it will vibrate in the slip stream like a guitar string, which is increasing drag like crazy. I would imagine the monofiliment is a large part of your problem.

Bish
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Old May 29, 2005, 11:01 AM
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I agree with Rick, additionally, the monofiliment will not just sit there and act like solid wire, it will vibrate in the slip stream like a guitar string, which is increasing drag like crazy. I would imagine the monofiliment is a large part of your problem.

Bish

Oops, a double click!
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Old May 29, 2005, 02:38 PM
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Will Change Flying and Landing Wires

I think that I probably tried to initiate turn with ailerons which go me into trouble.

I am concerned about use of metallic/conductive rigging wires, and possiblilty of radio problems/glitching. Is there a non-stretch non-metallic solution for rigging "wires".
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Old May 29, 2005, 08:00 PM
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spider-wire fishing line does not stretch .... i have ripped the lips off a bass when i set the hook once
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Old May 29, 2005, 08:58 PM
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Lots of people successfully use metal rigging wire on their bipes (including me). The thing to do is make sure you run your antenna well away from the wires, i.e., down the fuse towards the tail. I run all my antennas internally, inside a plastic tube. The flying wires should be kept fairly snug, but not guitar string tight. Use an FM or PCM receiver. As always, do a thorough range test before flying.
Using plastic-coated fishing leader wire will eliminate any metal-to-metal RF noise being generated from them. I've never had a radio interference issue that I could trace to metal flying wires--even with electrics. Even less an issue with glow power.

Alternatively, you should be able to get away with using heavy Kevlar thread with Dubro rigging couplers, and simply paint it the right color. Anything is better than the stretchy monofilament line. Note that metal wire (and Spider Wire) will stretch a little bit, but will stabilize after a while, so make adjustable wire ends using clevises.

Make sure to crimp your ends carefully (buy the crimping tool made for the crimps--pliers don't make good crimpers), and do a pull test on the wires before mounting them. A pulled-out wire on one side can set up an asymmetric warp that could make flying/ landing difficult. Ask me how I know.

Rick
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Old May 29, 2005, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
i have ripped the lips off a bass when i set the hook once
Now theres a nasty thought
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Old Jun 05, 2005, 09:52 AM
Cut the yellow wire
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E-- This may sound like a silly suggestion but why don't you buy a GWS Tiger Moth 400 to practice with. The TM 400 must be flown in exactly the way as described by Rick. Rudder initiates the turn and the ailerons control the roll aspect. Come out of the turn the same way. It's a good aileron trainer as it's not as docile as one might think from its reputation.
Good luck with the Camel.
Mike
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Old Jun 05, 2005, 04:34 PM
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That's a very good idea. I have a TM400, and although you can turn it on ailerons/elevator only, it turns a lot better with a bit of leading rudder.

Biplanes are draggy anyway, and with a roll input, the down aileron tends to yaw that side of the wings away from the intended turn direction. The rudder helps establish the yaw in the needed direction to make and complete the turn. The adverse yaw effect is probably more pronounced with dual ailerons like on a Camel, vs. a Tiger Moth.

Rick
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Old Aug 24, 2005, 12:15 PM
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Will Go With Spider Wire

I just don't like the possibility of make/break "electrical noise" at connections and any mysterious "reflections" between rigging and antenna. I am familiar with the wiggly thing on the vertical fin from flying my Switchback 3D electric and large glow models. Just have to remember to use it when alernating flying rudder/elevator and "REMA" models. Thanks for the advice.
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Old Aug 24, 2005, 01:02 PM
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Are you referring to the rigging? If the clevises are properly adjusted, there should be no 'make-break' stuff happening at all to generate electrical noise. The wire I use for rigging is stranded fishing leader coated with vinyl, so there's no direct metal-to-metal contact there either.

Never had a problem with steel rigging wire and interference so far, on about 6 aircraft I've used it on. Of course, there's always a first time.

Rick
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Old Aug 24, 2005, 01:07 PM
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Differential ailerons -- MUCH more up than down. Down gives so much drag that a right turn becomes a LEFT yaw -- the reason for coordinated rudder and ailerons.

High wing monoplanes are the same way. BTW, a little downthrust never hurts -- helps keep the nose down at slow speeds and when accelerating. Good luck with the plane--one of my favorites.

howell
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