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Old May 15, 2005, 10:51 PM
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rubychild's Avatar
Montreal Dorval, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
172 Posts
Worst maiden ever. TM400. What's that?!

For some reason, I was expecting this. Not that I was wishing for it but I had the feeling it wouldn't be as easy as everyone

Waited for the perfect day, delayed the maiden during many weekends. I bring the Tiger Moth 400 to the park today. Flew the Slo-V first to warm me up, then start nervously my first flight ever on a ARF (second plane after Slo-V)..

Running on this :

Stock motor
8 cells 2/3 A 1150 mah

It went bad. Tried a ROG on short grass. Progressively went to full speed but the bird never climbed! I went with full up elevator when i realized it wasnt climbing then it raised a little bit and *banked right for no reason* !! Instant crash with heavy damages :

Nose completely split in half, major damages on elevator too.


This 5 seconds maiden was filmed so have a look and don't hesitate to have a good laugh on this pitiful attempt at flying a Tiger Moth 400 :

Worst TM400 maiden ever!


I will be able to fix the plane but some inputs on what happened will sure help me with next attempt!

.fs.
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:59 PM
Dr. John
Sudbury, Canada
Joined Mar 2004
497 Posts
Quik guess.

My guess would be a combination of it being tail heavy and not enough power, looks like a tip stall right after take off.
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:03 PM
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rubychild's Avatar
Montreal Dorval, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
172 Posts
I checked the CG before flying and it was located on the good spot, where most TM400 owners fly them, according to that big TM400 build thread.

Concerning power, I don't know. I went with this 8 cell setup that was used many time succesfully by others, maybe not as easy as a 3 lipos cells but didnt want to go with lipos as a beginner.

What exactly is a tip stall?

The plane really banked right without any Tx inputs...

.fs.
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:17 PM
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lensrc's Avatar
Kansas City area
Joined Nov 2001
2,742 Posts
From what I could see in the vid(watched it several times), it appears it started the roll to the right as soon as it started to lift off. I think you may have been expecting it to lift off like the Slo-V would. With a brushed powered plane like the TM400, and carrying a heavy battery, a longer roll-out will be needed to get up to flight speed. With that big wing on the Slo-V the wing loading is much lower, and it pop's right off the ground. I can't tell from the vid why the plane rolled right as soon as it got a little lift, but I would guess either trim on the roll axis, a cross wind, or tip stall. Most likely tip stall due to the sudden full elevator just as it was breaking stall speed. On your next attempt, I would recomend finding a smoother surface to ROG from, and let it keep rolling until it lifts off, without any control inputs other than needed to keep it going straight.

Len
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:21 PM
"Walk of shame" Master!!!
NoM'rcrashPlease's Avatar
West Chicago Il
Joined Jul 2004
538 Posts
I've done that too
It looks to me that you pull full elevator too fast in the ROG that's why you stalled! and maybe you didn't act fast enough to pull "left" aileron(may be you have them mixed up?) Double check your equipment to see that everything is facing the right way!

What happen to me was, that a gust of wind got under my wing. right after I pushed full throtle. I'll let someone else aswere what's a "tip stall" Cuz I know that I'll just mixed you up even more
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:23 PM
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lensrc's Avatar
Kansas City area
Joined Nov 2001
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Tip stall occurs when one wingtip stalls before the rest of the wing. The result is loss of lift one one side, causing it to roll that direction. It usually happens close to the planes stall speed, and the plane is yawed for some reason. The inside wingtip drops below stall speed and stalls. Tip stall can be worse on a wing with differing amounts of "washout", or no washout. Washout is a foward twist in the wing panel. It puts the wingtip at less angle of attack, increasing it's stall speed compared to the center of the wing.

Len
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:27 PM
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LTChip's Avatar
Helena, MT
Joined Feb 2003
2,913 Posts
That's not that bad of a maiden. I have had way worse!

I agree that you needed to let it roll-out some more and gain some more speed. Seems to have plenty of power for scale or better flight - just have to let it get to speed before applying elevator when ROGing.
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:28 PM
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lensrc's Avatar
Kansas City area
Joined Nov 2001
2,742 Posts
Quote:
That's not that bad of a maiden. I have had way worse!
Ditto!

I have had them that looked similar, but with more altitude!

Len
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Old May 15, 2005, 11:41 PM
What power line?
PoudreDerf's Avatar
Rocky Mountains
Joined Aug 2004
3,507 Posts
Saw your movie and cried. It looks like a tip stall to me.
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Old May 16, 2005, 12:20 AM
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rubychild's Avatar
Montreal Dorval, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
172 Posts
lensrc :

It now starts to make sense to me. Sure, I was expecting a fast ROG, based on my experience with the Slo-V and that couple TM400 take off videos I saw, but they were all using 11.1 volts lipos, more powerful than my setup.

Actually, once I went full power and saw no lift, I went full up elevator expecting the plane to start climbing when he will be fast enough to exceed the stall speed. That's what I do with the Slo-V but I was so wrong I guess.


NOM :

I really double checked all my control surface to make sure they were moving the right way so thats not the problem. When I saw the plane banking right I immediately tried to turn left but I guess it's hard to recover from a tip stall at 1 feet off the ground...


Would you suggest to try a hand lauch instead of a ROG?! Based on what I saw today, I'm wondering if I will be able to gain enough speed from a hand lauch without breaking it badly again...!

.fs.
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Old May 16, 2005, 12:30 AM
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lensrc's Avatar
Kansas City area
Joined Nov 2001
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My experience is that handlaunching a maiden should be avoided if possible. I would ROG again, but just let it roll until it starts getting light, then a bit of up can be applied, but only a little. With your setup, the plane will need to "fly on the wing" , meaning it wont have enough power to pull the plane up. It will need to have airspeed, which will create the needed lift.

Len
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:28 AM
I fly for Beer
Jagzilla's Avatar
Chilliwack, B.C. Canada
Joined Sep 2004
2,730 Posts
Bite the bullet, and get yourself a 3 cell lipo for it. Night and day difference!
J
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:43 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,588 Posts
Looks like you just hauled her off too early, before the wing was flying properly.

Maybe you could use a little more power but if you try a handlaunch and don't try to climb too steeply you'll get a feel for whether she is grossly underpowered or not.
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Old May 16, 2005, 07:01 AM
Chillin till SEFF
bildo baggins's Avatar
Warner Robins, GA
Joined Aug 2003
14,638 Posts
That is definitely not the worst maiden ever. It would have been way more dramatic and drawn out. I have done it all. Reversed ailerons, elevator, rudder, etc. I think the above comments have given the reason for the tip stall. Put her in to the wind and make sure you use a smooth runway and get your speed on first and you should be fine. Some planes demand a bit of speed so you can get athority on your control surfaces. Good Luck
Bill
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Old May 16, 2005, 07:41 AM
What power line?
PoudreDerf's Avatar
Rocky Mountains
Joined Aug 2004
3,507 Posts
Glad you took a video of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoudreDerf
Saw your movie and cried. It looks like a tip stall to me.
I watched your video a dozen times. Hey, I've done that. But, I learned something from your video. I learned that you need speed to keep flying. So, your crash was not in vain. I learned something from it.
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