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Old Apr 02, 2002, 01:17 AM
Libertas in Infinitum
logan5's Avatar
Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
another reason why I'm a libertarian

There's a bill here in the state legislature in California that if passed, will put a 2 cent tax on all sales of soda. This tax money will then go towards health education in our public schools.

great .... you just wait my friends....it won't be long before they figure out a way to tax you for sitting around and doing nothing.

This of course is all in the name of public health. Acutally I think the lady who was authoring this bill was trying to fight obesity in school children, and this was the best she could come up with.

logan5
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 07:01 AM
I'm kind of a big deal
Tarpon Shawn's Avatar
Tarpon Springs, FL USA
Joined Feb 2002
852 Posts
Question?

And when you die and are overweight. They could take additional taxes out of any inheritance.

Logan5...

How does the Libertarian party differ for the Reps and Dems? I'm not trying to be a smart azz, I really want to know. I don't see many Libertarian candidates on this coast. Do you see your party taking votes mostly from which party or do you think alot of the votes are from people that normally would not vote?

What little I see in the press paints your party and big conspiracy guys and such.

I've been voting Republican for the most part. I think the Democrats attack the opposition more on a personal level, but usually don't seem to offer a constuctive plan (oil, social security etc...). Just scare tactics.

Shawn
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 09:07 AM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,544 Posts
If it's a health measure, they could charge hospital stays per lb/hour, funerals on gross casket weight etc.
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 09:48 AM
Libertas in Infinitum
logan5's Avatar
Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Re: Question?

Quote:
Originally posted by Icrash2
And when you die and are overweight. They could take additional taxes out of any inheritance.

Logan5...

How does the Libertarian party differ for the Reps and Dems? I'm not trying to be a smart azz, I really want to know. I don't see many Libertarian candidates on this coast. Do you see your party taking votes mostly from which party or do you think alot of the votes are from people that normally would not vote?

What little I see in the press paints your party and big conspiracy guys and such.

I've been voting Republican for the most part. I think the Democrats attack the opposition more on a personal level, but usually don't seem to offer a constuctive plan (oil, social security etc...). Just scare tactics.

Shawn
vs-Republicans:

We believe in the freedom to chose the way we live our lives and that as citizens of the US we ought not have our right to pursue happiness and liberty by a Government that thinks it knows best. Examples:
a) A woman's right to chose what's best for her body i.e. abortion
b) A state's definition of marriage ought not to have religious conotations i.e. same sex marriage.
c) An absoloute severance of state and religion
d) equal benefit rights (health, insurance, inheritance, parental and adoption) to single gay people and couples.


vs-Democrats

We believe that people ought to be held accountable for their own actions. This is called personal responsibility. One should not be looking towards nor expect the federal government to cover up and wash away your mistakes. Example:
1) social welfare
2) medicare


vs-both

These are some of the issues where we differ from both parties.
1) Dismanteling the IRS, Federal Income Tax is unconstitutional
2) Dismantleing public education, the Federal government does not have a constitutional mandate to educate the masses
3) legalize recreational drugs and end the war on drugs...Anyone remember the 18th and 21st admendments?
4) legalize prostitution, this is a consentual act between two parties to trade cash for a service. Polititians do this everyday.
5) End social security. Again .. there is no constitutional mandate to provide retirement funds.
6) End state sponsored racial discrimination/favortism ... yes ... that includes affirmative action.

The Libertarian party can be summed in four issues

1) Fiscal conservatism (i.e. no federal taxation and certainly no taxes on soda)
2) Social liberalism (freedom to chose the way we live as long as we don't hurt or impare anyone else's ability to do so as well)
3) Personal responsibility (take responsibilty for your own mistakes, i.e. work hard, stay in school and don't have children untill you are ready mentally and financially)
4) Up hold the letter of the Constitution. (No liberal interpretations to fit your agenda ... both parties are guilty of this)

We believe that the American people are better than what both parties have given us for. We've just become so dependent on the Feds to take care of us, to wipe our faces and kiss our boo boos that we've forgotten that we used to be a very self reliant and independant culture. They treat us like children, so collectively we've been acting like children. It's time we took responsibility for our own future, because the more we give them an excuse to baby us, the more taxes and freedoms we give up. We are better than this. Just look at our grandparents and the generations before them.

logan5
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 10:02 AM
God is good
Viper Pilot's Avatar
Banjul
Joined Jan 2001
4,246 Posts
logan5,

Concise, factual and simple. I like that in a thread.

It also cleared up some of my misunderstanding about the Libertarians.

It is difficult to try and describe our two major parties; the Libertarians are not a dash of one and a sprinkle of the other, but a totally new way of thinking. They're a little too "middle of the road" for me, though.

VP
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 10:30 AM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
The problem with specific taxes earmarked for specific purposes is that they are SHAMS!

The guilible public thinks, "Oh, what a good idea. Let the Coke drinkers pay for more health education."

First, will there be more education? And if there is more, is it really needed? Unlikely and no.

Second, the vast majority of these taxes just replace general taxes, which then go to increasing government expenditures in some other area. The overall expenditures don't change, the source of the money just changes!

Senator #1: "Oh look, $200 million from lottery profits going to education."

Senator #2: "Oh good, let's cut general tax allocations to education by $200 million and spend it on more freeways, or those Senior Centers you wanted in your district, Senator."
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 11:39 AM
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In a libertarian society there is no need for marriage as it is there for preferential treatment for those choosing to couple.

1) social welfare

What about the dawns syndrome baby. Do you let it starve. What about disaster victims.

) medicare

What do you do with people that reach the ends of their lives and are indigent or medical costs wiped out all resources.

1) Dismanteling the IRS, Federal Income Tax is unconstitutional

Your disagreement has to be based in philosophy as they could just amend the constitution.


) Dismantleing public education

Democracy requires an informed and educated populace. You WILL soon have a revolution if you ruin the possibility of betterment for all poor peoples children.

5) End social security. Again .. there is no constitutional mandate to provide retirement funds.

Do you send then out on icebergs?

1) Fiscal conservatism (i.e. no federal taxation and certainly no taxes on soda)
2) Social liberalism (freedom to chose the way we live as long as we don't hurt or impare anyone else's ability to do so as well)
3) Personal responsibility (take responsibilty for your own mistakes, i.e. work hard, stay in school and don't have children untill you are ready mentally and financially)
4) Up hold the letter of the Constitution. (No liberal interpretations to fit your agenda ... both parties are guilty of this)


Everyone agrees with these general principles. When the rubber meets the road, there are tough decisions that will require compromise. Also humans arent always in the winners circle. It is not right to condemn every generation after an unfortunates to servitude. You cannot magically fight inertia of no resources.
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 11:43 AM
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supply and demand. How do you stop corporations from jacking their prices to compensate for the increased pocket coin. They will attempt to take the difference. How do you deal with the 85% of people that live paycheck to paycheck. Government education is abolished.

You need to include some pragmatism into lib. to make it workable or it will remain a pretty idea on a shelf.
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 11:59 AM
Libertas in Infinitum
logan5's Avatar
Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Gman2
supply and demand. How do you stop corporations from jacking their prices to compensate for the increased pocket coin. They will attempt to take the difference. How do you deal with the 85% of people that live paycheck to paycheck. Government education is abolished.

You need to include some pragmatism into lib. to make it workable or it will remain a pretty idea on a shelf.
actually I've already covered this in another post. But I'll do it again here breifly.

Say Gman2 Corp and Logan5 Heavy Industries are the only producers of fire retardant underwear. Obviously everyone wants fire proof underwear .. I mean, who wouldn't? And so the demand goes up. And while GC and LHI ramp up production prices will be high, that's a given. But when supply equals demand .. well, now here's the tricky part. See, there's this thing called margin and this other thing called market share. You can have one or the other, but rarely can you have both. Now, let's say GC decides to jack prices up in hopes of makeing huge bucks based on margin, well, that all great and dandy IF they were the only suppliers ... which they are not. So here comes LHI and we decide to go for market share. We under cut GC by 30% so that while GC make 5 bucks a unit, we only make 3.5 a unit. So what. by being 30% cheaper ... we capture say 80% of the market selling more units thereby makeing more money in the long term. Can anyone say PC vs MAC?

Here's another situation ... subsidised medicine. This is tricky so pay attention. Say GC and LHI makes a pill that makes married women WANT to have sex, and sells for 10 bucks a pop. Wow, that's pretty expensive, and so the male dominated congress decides to subsidize the pills by 2.50 well, now what company wouldn't want some of that action? So, thinking that when pills were 10.00 GC and LHI were still making a killing, they decide, well, lets increase prices by say ... 2.00? We make 2 bucks more plus and customer saves 50cents net. That my friends is good business practice and also why the cost of anything subsidized will always go up.
So, now while the customers DO save .50 net, they still see that the cost of this magic pill went from 10.00 to 12.00 ... hay .. no fair. Why that's just big business taking advantage of us. So, what if ... instead of haveing a government subsidy of 2.50 which can only be used on this particular pill, the government gave each person 2.50 to spend on anything they wanted. Well, GC and LHI no longer have a built in profit margine do they? They know that there are customers out there with money to spend, and would like to have them spend that money their products, which will lead to competative pricing and competition which in the long run will keep prices down. The reason for this is because GC and LHI knows that customers can now spend that money on ANYTHING they want and not just their magic pills.



As for the people who live paycheck to paycheck ... hmm maybe they wouldn't be in that possition if they didn't have to pay so many taxes? And also, I say, so what? There will always be people who live day to day, paycheck to paycheck. That's just the way things are. If you want otherwise, go to the Soviet Union ... oops... sorry, the great worker's paradise doesn't exist anymore.

As for Government education abolished....the Libertarian stance is on the ending of the Federal Government partaking in public education. If States want to set up a public education system within their borders ... so be it.

logan5
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 12:02 PM
I'm kind of a big deal
Tarpon Shawn's Avatar
Tarpon Springs, FL USA
Joined Feb 2002
852 Posts
Thanks Logan5

Very helpful and well put. I appreciate the information and I have a much better understanding of the Libertarian party. I doubt if most people could be so concise when describing their political beliefs.

I'm sorry if I messed up your thread. I should of realized some people would see it as a opportunity the challenge you point by point. I was not trying to submarine you.

Back to the thread topic: Can I get a tax break if I drink lite beer or use diet coke with my rum?

Crash
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 12:44 PM
Libertas in Infinitum
logan5's Avatar
Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Gman2
In a libertarian society there is no need for marriage as it is there for preferential treatment for those choosing to couple.

1) social welfare

What about the dawns syndrome baby. Do you let it starve. What about disaster victims.


Um... I think that's what parents are for? Unless you are into abandoning your child if she or he happens to have down syndrome, and if that were the case ... dude.. you suck.

) medicare

What do you do with people that reach the ends of their lives and are indigent or medical costs wiped out all resources.


I'm sorry, but the truth of the matter is that the high cost of medicine and medical care is a result of programs like Medicare and Medicade. Abuses within the program has forced prices to sky rocket to the point that without government aid it's pretty much un-attainable ... ironic isn't it?

1) Dismanteling the IRS, Federal Income Tax is unconstitutional

Your disagreement has to be based in philosophy as they could just amend the constitution.


Yes, they could, but they haven't and untill they do, it's unconstitutional.

) Dismantleing public education

Democracy requires an informed and educated populace. You WILL soon have a revolution if you ruin the possibility of betterment for all poor peoples children.


Sure, okay ... but the Federal Government has no mandate to supply free education. Again, if the States want to do that .. let them do that. Education is a states right issue, not something to be miss-handled and miss-managed by the Feds.

5) End social security. Again .. there is no constitutional mandate to provide retirement funds.

Do you send then out on icebergs?


If they haven't prepared... then yes. Of course if they weren't taxed so much in the first place or even allowed to handle their own retirement plans on their own, they'd be better off than they are now.


1) Fiscal conservatism (i.e. no federal taxation and certainly no taxes on soda)
2) Social liberalism (freedom to chose the way we live as long as we don't hurt or impare anyone else's ability to do so as well)
3) Personal responsibility (take responsibilty for your own mistakes, i.e. work hard, stay in school and don't have children untill you are ready mentally and financially)
4) Up hold the letter of the Constitution. (No liberal interpretations to fit your agenda ... both parties are guilty of this)

Everyone agrees with these general principles. When the rubber meets the road, there are tough decisions that will require compromise. Also humans arent always in the winners circle. It is not right to condemn every generation after an unfortunates to servitude. You cannot magically fight inertia of no resources.
No one denies that there will be comparmises made. I'd be more than happy to accept and nation wide flat tax if it ment doing away with the IRS and the Federal Income Tax ... hey, the Russians are doing it ... now that's ironic.

Look these are changes that won't happen over night nor should they ... but. Steps need to be taken. As for Social Security and Medicare? No, if I was president I wouldn't end them right here and now. The country needs to be weaned slowly and surely way from mother Gorvenment and it will take time .... remember ... little steps Ellie.

Acutally the only people I feel deserves and should get free medical care are our veterans. If you served, then our country owes you big time for the rest of your life.

logan5
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 12:47 PM
Libertas in Infinitum
logan5's Avatar
Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Icrash2
Can I get a tax break if I drink lite beer or use diet coke with my rum?

Crash
Beer and Rum ... no problem ... but you owe me 2 cents for that coke .. diet or no diet it's still "junk" food.

you wait ... soon they'll find a way to tax sex.

logan5
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Old Apr 02, 2002, 02:02 PM
Master Nursery Builder
The_Giver's Avatar
Canton, GA
Joined Jan 2001
297 Posts
Off topic, but since you're newly chained... er... married, and you mentioned sex:

Someone told me this when I got married:

Get a huge jar. Within the first year of your marriage, every time you have sex, put a marble in the jar. After one year is up, every time you have sex remove a marble from the jar. You will never run out of marbles.

Don't know if it's true, I've only been married 2 years.

-O Geoffrey

Good examples with the GC and LHI.
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