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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:07 AM
Registered User
San Jose, Ca.
Joined Jan 2005
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"Flat" Turns On A Foamy?

Hi Guys,

I've been practicing flat turns on the reflex sim, mostly the shockflyer models. It seems too easy, turning on a dime, just adding a little elevator to maintain altitude.

Are the light shockies that easy to do this manuver on? Are bigger (36-39") planes much harder to do this on?


I really love turning this way but don't want to build bad habits before my first foamie is ready to go!

thx

bob
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:15 AM
(aka Cliff Lawson)
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United Kingdom, Essex
Joined Oct 2001
1,897 Posts
Easy to do on most "3D" planes because they generally have a rudder the size of a barn door.

(and yes it becomes the natural way to turn, esp. on the approach)

Cliff
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:16 AM
United States, FL, Hollywood
Joined Sep 2003
285 Posts
I would compare the shockflyers, to very sharp cirgical knife...... wherever you point it they go... if you keep them light it'll be even nicer.....
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:27 AM
And You're Not
Timbuktu, Mali (Happy?)
Joined Oct 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelgtr
Hi Guys,

I've been practicing flat turns on the reflex sim, mostly the shockflyer models. It seems too easy, turning on a dime, just adding a little elevator to maintain altitude.

Are the light shockies that easy to do this manuver on? Are bigger (36-39") planes much harder to do this on?


I really love turning this way but don't want to build bad habits before my first foamie is ready to go!

thx

bob
They do indeed do very good flat rudder turns, even the 36" ones (or at least mine do.)
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:51 AM
Registered User
San Jose, Ca.
Joined Jan 2005
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Does it get harder the bigger/heavier the plane is? I'm building a 39", 16 oz, FoamtanaS.

thx

bob
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 12:19 PM
NY Slope Dog
Wind Junkie's Avatar
Syracuse, NY
Joined Sep 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelgtr
Does it get harder the bigger/heavier the plane is? I'm building a 39", 16 oz, FoamtanaS.

thx

bob
A lot has to do with how much vertical surface area is at the CG or even ahead of the CG for how well a plane will flat turn (or knife edge -- it's really the same phenomenon).

Unfortunately for you, the Funtana doesn't have too much side area up there. In general, the "prettier" they look, the worse they fly for KE. Conversely, look at the Tensor -- one of the best flat turners out there -- but ugly as sin. George Hicks did a great article in 3D flyer about what he calls SFG's, or Side Force Generators. Think of it like another wing in the vertical dimension. The bigger that wing is, the better you'll turn sideways (KE or flat turn).

Also, symmetry matters a lot to avoid roll coupling. Balancing the vertical surface areas on the front of the fuse above AND below the wing is a tricky thing for aesthetics, but makes trimming a whole lot better.

My Funtana 90 is pretty weak in the frontal area category, and suffers from poor KE and roll coupling. Some mixing took this out, but it took a few weeks to dial in all the variables. Maybe your mini Funtana has a slightly different layout.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 03:14 PM
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San Jose, Ca.
Joined Jan 2005
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Wind,

This is a "FOAMtanaS, not a Funtana


http://www.darrolcady.com/Foamtana/F...a-electric.htm

thx

bob



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Junkie
A lot has to do with how much vertical surface area is at the CG or even ahead of the CG for how well a plane will flat turn (or knife edge -- it's really the same phenomenon).

Unfortunately for you, the Funtana doesn't have too much side area up there. In general, the "prettier" they look, the worse they fly for KE. Conversely, look at the Tensor -- one of the best flat turners out there -- but ugly as sin. George Hicks did a great article in 3D flyer about what he calls SFG's, or Side Force Generators. Think of it like another wing in the vertical dimension. The bigger that wing is, the better you'll turn sideways (KE or flat turn).

Also, symmetry matters a lot to avoid roll coupling. Balancing the vertical surface areas on the front of the fuse above AND below the wing is a tricky thing for aesthetics, but makes trimming a whole lot better.

My Funtana 90 is pretty weak in the frontal area category, and suffers from poor KE and roll coupling. Some mixing took this out, but it took a few weeks to dial in all the variables. Maybe your mini Funtana has a slightly different layout.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 06:43 PM
NY Slope Dog
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Syracuse, NY
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My Bad. Your foamtana should be light so it will do flat turns nice and slow, unlike the "mini funtana" that was stuck in my mind.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 07:45 PM
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Clinton,CT
Joined Aug 2004
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The RUDDER is your friend ! Keep practicing with that rudder it will make all your flying get so much better. Years ago I was terrible on the rudder than I learned to fly RC Heli's and man that rudder thumb came out of that coma it was in. All my flying from that point on became so much more enjoyable and most of the 3D type stunts require rudder input at some point. Good Luck Yogi
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:14 PM
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Gilbert, AZ
Joined May 2003
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They'll flat turn, but you'll get a much tighter radius if you do coordinated turns.

Dan
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 11:36 PM
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San Jose, Ca.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyPyro
They'll flat turn, but you'll get a much tighter radius if you do coordinated turns.

Dan
Yeah, but thr flat turns look too cool

bob
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Old Mar 22, 2005, 08:12 AM
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You mean a flat turn is not a coordinated turn. It does take both rudder and aileron so...? I thought a flat turn was a type of coordinated turn.
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Old Mar 22, 2005, 09:32 AM
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slc ut
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hold on -
The flat turns with these models simply take advantage of the fuselage shape and area distribution . not much rudder size is required.
The rudder just changes angle . the fuselage does all the work.
On good ones , full application of rudder will produce a extremely tight radius turn-which can be coaxed into a flat climbing or diving spin.
a co ordinated turn is not involved
The loadings and inertia on these beasties is so low that rolling to knife edge and yanking elevator actually takes longer to get the model to reverse direction.
On some models you must hold some elevator input to prevent altitude change or pitching-typically down.

Coordinated turns are not of much if any value on these models
They are needed on craft such as a large Piper Cub, to balance the angle of the wings and direction of the fuselage -so that the turn is in complete harmony -that is ,the plane is not skidding as it turns.
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Old Mar 22, 2005, 12:02 PM
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Palmdale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbmon
You mean a flat turn is not a coordinated turn. It does take both rudder and aileron so...? I thought a flat turn was a type of coordinated turn.
.
"Coordinated" means the ball is in the center among other things. In a flat turn, the ball is stuck to the outside of the tube. There's a serious yaw rate, which isn't permitted for a coordinated turn.
Your coffee is slopping out the side of the cup in a flat turn.
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Old Mar 22, 2005, 12:34 PM
1Point Landing Specialist
Joined Nov 2004
452 Posts
i dont think coordinated turns are even close to necessary. you can do them, but i doubt anyone but yourself will notice. i just "roll and pull" and the plane pulls through VERY nicely. when i first flew my fancyfoam.com edge 540, i didnt use teh rudder at all. for just doing a few loops and rolls, its not necessary.

my friends are always begging to see flat turns. its very odd looking and these planes can pull off some very tight flat turns. I dont use them as my primary turning technique, i just use elevator and aileron - habit i suppose, thats what you get for learning on a skyscooter . I find that, the more rudder i use, the more dazzled the spectators become.

Flat turns are especially cool (and necessary) when your flying very close to the ground, when rolling too quickly could result in a loss of altitude, putting your plane into the ground. (i guess this is just another bad habit of mine - i roll and then pull up on the elevator, as opposed to blending it into one smooth motion)

but hey, what ever works for you..
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