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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:23 AM
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Phoenix, Arizona
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Ice Charger...Detects 12.6 voltage early

I have been using my ICE Charger for a couple of months now. I am new to lipos and this weekend I had the opportunity to use an Astro 109.

I was charging my battery and it had already detected its peak voltage 12.60.
I was winding down on the current and was down to about 4amps. i was charging my 7800lipo pack at 7.8amps obviously. It was taking forever so I took it off of the ICE and put it on the Astro. The Astro detected the Voltage to be at about 12.3. It continued to charge it at 7.8 amps for anouther 2000 miliamps and it peaked the battery.

My question is why does the ICE think that the voltage is peaked halfway through the charge. It takes hours to charge a battery when it is only supposed to take 1 hour at 1C.

Has anybody else experienced this. Is there a setting I can change to make it charge faster?

I was thinking the the Astro wasn't filling up all the way and just cutting off and did a charge on the Astro and then threw it on the ICE. It was defenantly peaked.

Rich
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 02:33 AM
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If you have a hi resistance/bad conection anywhere in the charge line conecting charger and battery, it will cause the charger to think the battery voltage is higher than it actually is. This will end the charge too soon.

Check for loose/dirty conectors, bad solder joint, broken wires, too small wires, too long wires etc.

Good luck!

Larry
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 10:02 AM
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Haralson County GA. USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry3215
If you have a hi resistance/bad conection anywhere in the charge line conecting charger and battery, it will cause the charger to think the battery voltage is higher than it actually is. This will end the charge too soon.

Check for loose/dirty conectors, bad solder joint, broken wires, too small wires, too long wires etc.

Good luck!

Larry
There is an Ice thread around here somewhere. Will an Ice actually charge a 3 or 4 cell Li Poly pack at 8Amps? Many times as the cells(volts) goes up the available max. charge rate goes down. An AF 109 can not even charge 9cells at 8 amp. you can have one or the other but not both ..

Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 11:00 AM
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A LiPo charger never "peaks". A CC/CV charger such as the ICE will charge at the "set" current (if it has the guts) at any voltage under 12.6V(3s) until the voltage reaches 12.6V at which time it will charge at constant voltage (12.6V) and the current will slowly decrease until it reaches something under 0.1A at which time the charge is terminated. The changeover from CC to CV occurs about 1/2 way in the charge when the V reaches 12.6V.

Isn't the Astro a "Pulse" charger?
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy
A LiPo charger never "peaks". A CC/CV charger such as the ICE will charge at the "set" current (if it has the guts) at any voltage under 12.6V(3s) until the voltage reaches 12.6V at which time it will charge at constant voltage (12.6V) and the current will slowly decrease until it reaches something under 0.1A at which time the charge is terminated. The changeover from CC to CV occurs about 1/2 way in the charge when the V reaches 12.6V.

Isn't the Astro a "Pulse" charger?
Mostly right but I have observed a few slightly different point Hoppy.
I do not own and Ice however my Tritons,Apachee2500s and TP425 set the charge rate in the CV stage based on the starting charge rate.The higher the initial rate the higher the CV charge rate at its beginning .The Triton s terminate the charge when 12.6 is held for x amount of time as does the AF109. The Apachee 2500s and TP425 continue to charge at a very low rate to maintain 4.2 vpc. The TP425 uses a pulse charge after charge complete while the Apachee 2500 uses a very low "trickle". I have heard the AF109 refereed t as a pulse charger,guess I need to put mine on a scope but would have to borrow one as I no longer electronic project that seriously. Best I have been able to determine is that AF109 charges at 1/2 of set rate during the first three minutes. If this is a pulsed charge it will not show up as such on a digital or analog volts or mA meter(per tty good ones). The second stage appears to be CC and stage three is pulsed(off and on) and continues until 4.2 per cell is maintained for 20 seconds(?) while charge is "pulsed" off.

I have also observed that the rate of charge and the ending charge rate has an effect on the final resting volts. It is possible that the act of reducing the charge rate during charge will cause an early termination of charge with Li Polys just lihe with Ni Cads and NiMH cells. Peak is often a mis used term but I have never seen a good term to describe the different with Li Poly charge in the difference of 4.2 volts held for 20 second withiout charge being applied and the resulting 4.16 volt 15 seconds after charge terination. Is this a "false peak ",under charge or just a fact of Li Poly charging that only chargers which maintain a "trickle" charge either CV or pulsed for an addition length of time to fully "top off " the cells?
These observations based on my use of the above mentioned charger with many packs, a few cells and well over 1000 charge cycles with I believe 6 differen brands of Li Polys ranging from brand new to well worn.

Does any off this understandable? Iknow it is a bit confusing. I have seen both my Tritons and AF109 to display 12.7 volts plus while charging a 3S pack. Thie Tritons seem to over charge(volts indicated only) more at first(at near end of charge) and then less over volts with each check cycle.
Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer
.........I do not own and Ice however my Tritons,Apachee2500s and TP425 set the charge rate in the CV stage based on the starting charge rate.The higher the initial rate the higher the CV charge rate at its beginning .The Triton s terminate the charge when 12.6 is held for x amount of time as does the AF109. ........Charles
Don't you mean CC stage? The CV charge rate on the Triton is whatever current will maintain a 12.6V voltage. Naturally it has to less than the "set" current or it would be over 12.6V. If it's charging at 2A during CC, when the switch to CV is made at 12.6V, the current decreases slowly until it reaches 100ma and terminates shortly thereafter.

Are we saying the same thing?

Somebody posted an oscillograph tracing of an Astro charger and there is also one for a triton. hunt, hunt
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy
Don't you mean CC stage? The CV charge rate on the Triton is whatever current will maintain a 12.6V voltage. Naturally it has to less than the "set" current or it would be over 12.6V. If it's charging at 2A during CC, when the switch to CV is made at 12.6V, the current decreases slowly until it reaches 100ma and terminates shortly thereafter.

Are we saying the same thing?

Somebody posted an oscillograph tracing of an Astro charger and there is also one for a triton. hunt, hunt
Perhaps I am confused but common term is CC/CV which I interperted to be constant current (first stage) folowed by constant volts (final stage). Maybe I am mistaken. The term CC/cv is not interely accurate at any rate. The charge in mA deminishes with all Li Poly chargers by some means to maintain constant(?) volts which really is not a constant volts with most Li Poly chargers.
I guess I should spend more time reading charge graphs but to be honest I am more interested in the final result that the actual charging process.

Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:12 PM
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I agree that CC is the first stage and CV is the second stage. If I set the Triton for a 1A charge, it will maintain 1A (CC) until the voltage reaches 12.6V and than maintain 12.6V (CV) until the current drops below 100ma.

There are several references to the Astro being a pulse charger rather than a CC/CV charger but I don't don't know much beyond that. I had a BEL charger which would pulse the cell at voltages well over 4.2V/cell. Haven't seen any fire reports from BEL users, so it must be doing OK. It concerned me enough though that I swapped it for an Apache.
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy
I agree that CC is the first stage and CV is the second stage. If I set the Triton for a 1A charge, it will maintain 1A (CC) until the voltage reaches 12.6V and than maintain 12.6V (CV) until the current drops below 100ma.
There are several references to the Astro being a pulse charger rather than a CC/CV charger but I don't don't know much beyond that. I had a BEL charger which would pulse the cell at voltages well over 4.2V/cell. Haven't seen any fire reports from BEL users, so it must be doing OK. It concerned me enough though that I swapped it for an Apache.
Based on display or external measurements?
From my charge log :
Triton charging E Tec 1200 Classic.
Charger set to 1.2
During first 30 min. 0.545 deliverd to pack.
45 minutes 0.880 charge tapered back to .9Ah
50 min. 0.960Ah 12.6 reached for the first time.
60 min. 1.015 in rate now 0.3Ah
75 min. 0.100 Ah rate 1068 total charge delivered resting volts 12.52.

Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:47 PM
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Perhaps I need to make a clarification. I guess the AF 109 is a pulse charger it just not not fit my idea of a pulsedcharger. During stage 2 which is most of the charge cycle it charges for 59 seconds of each minute and is "pulsed" off for 1 second. Pulse chargers which I have used in the past cycle much more frequently and quicjker than this.

I stand corrected by myself. See I am willing to admit when I am wrong ,well at least sometimes.

Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 12:53 PM
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Based on display..... Interesting info.
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 01:22 PM
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My Triton data also based on display other than resting after charge.
Here is another tid bit. Just finished charging a Tanic 1050 pack which only has 10 cycles on it. I was not watching display at charge end however right after deep removed ,checked resting volts 12.43 . I reconected to Triton set at 0.1A and as soon as volts was displayed it read 12.47.
Now does this indicate a false peak,early charge terination or what? It had been charging at 0.8 A ,approximately 0.7C ,my standard charge rate.
Last flight was only short flight and only 343 mAh recharge indicated. It is still on charger and at 0.1 rate is indicating 12.55 volts while under charge.
Non of the chargers over $50 seem to be able to charge a Li Poly to 4.2 volts per cell resting.
A true CC/CV charger with a voltss / amps display is sadly missing from the market.
I do not mind giving up 10% or even close to 15-20% of cell capacity to maint healthier packs longer but I prefer to loose it on the bottom ends when it helps .
Charles

Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asmokindeal
I
My question is why does the ICE think that the voltage is peaked halfway through the charge. It takes hours to charge a battery when it is only supposed to take 1 hour at 1C.

Has anybody else experienced this. Is there a setting I can change to make it charge faster?

I was thinking the the Astro wasn't filling up all the way and just cutting off and did a charge on the Astro and then threw it on the ICE. It was defenantly peaked.

Rich
Hi Rich,


Using a CC/CV charger like the ICE at 1C, the battery will reach 4.2v per cell at approximately 60% or so state of charge. But a complete charge shouldn’t take forever, in fact it takes about 1-hour 20-minutes to charge a lipo using a CC/CV charger at 1C.

The problem is, the ICE full and complete indicators (beeps) are geared to fully charge even very small batteries. Your battery is receiving a very complete, but unnecessary long charge.
As you’ve noticed, it takes hours to go from a 95% charge to a 100% charge and it’s just not worth it.
Try ending your charge when the ICE display reads 0.78A or 0.1C with your battery. This will give you a 95% charge in approximately 1-hour 20-minutes.
Also charging at .7 is safer, and better for your battery, in most people’s minds.

Hope this helps!
Jim
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 03:18 PM
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IA-Flyer your PM box is full and I emailed with no replys as yet..any questions ./request which I answered are in never never land I guess.
Charles
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Old Mar 15, 2005, 03:46 PM
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Phoenix, Arizona
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Holy cow,
This thread went off. Lots of awsome information. thanks everybody for their contributions.

Rich
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