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Old Mar 21, 2006, 03:53 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Belgium
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I know !! It is A little bit "off-subjet", but..... you still can imagine 2 of those in a Rafale !!

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Old Mar 21, 2006, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
... A little bit "off-subjet", but...
Just for your information, kerosene turbine models are discussed here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34

and here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Jets/forumid_120/tt.htm

The subject of this thread is the EDF=Electric Ducted Fan Aeronaut Rafale. Thank you for your understanding.
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ost
... intake aerea, because the original one is a little bit small for the 90er fans?...
I seems you did a mistake when you calculated the aera?

The intake area on the Aeronaut Rafale is easily measured, I did it some time ago, and it amounts to about 46.2 cm^2 on one side.

The fan swept area for the MidFan is around 49.6 cm^2 , so the intake is 46.2/49.6 = 93% of the MidiFan FSA which is just about perfect. The designer knew what he was doing when he designed the Rafale intakes for a 90mm fan .

The fan swept area of the MiniFan on the other hand is around 29.4 cm^2, which makes the Rafale intake oversized by 46.2/29.4 = 57% .
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 04:36 PM
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Just wanted to let you know, that we just got a batch of the rare Kevlar Rafales in, and since two customers on the waiting list decided otherwise, there are two left.
They are 429 Euro ea. which converts to about 445 USD. They come w/o fans.

Oliver
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 05:49 PM
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Oliver,
Are they the single 120mm fan version? Paul
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 06:12 PM
Watt me worry?
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Great .........will someone start a new thread on the singlefan version? Is there by chance a builder's ledger which was transcribed during the research and development phase of this plane? Maybe Herb...you have build this model? Max

Sorry for the drift Herb.
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:25 AM
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Willich / Germany
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@Marshall:

Yes! Only the single fan version is available in Aramid (Kevlar).

The normal one for twin fans is in stock at any time for a lower price.

Only the new single version is hard to come by. When those kits are gone I expect the next ones to come sometime late summer.

Oliver
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:49 AM
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Oliver,
I am interested in one. I will email you to discuss this transaction. Thanks, Paul
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 08:13 AM
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kevlar rafale

i want the other one! i have sent you an e-mail....
kirk
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 01:56 PM
Watt me worry?
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I have a question concerning motors and Lipo batteries.
I have a giant scale plane (my first Electric model)and was wondering if the motor and lipos could be used in the Kevlar Rafale?
The motor is the Hacker C-50 xl13 (Hacker opti-77 controller)and the lipos are two 5s4p in series...which tops out @ 10s4p @ 2400 watts ...18.1 volts.

Although I have been modeling for years this is my first venture into electric. I will be building the Kevlar Rafale as soon as I can obtain the model.
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Old Mar 25, 2006, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax1965
I have a question concerning motors and Lipo batteries.
I have a giant scale plane (my first Electric model)and was wondering if the motor and lipos could be used in the Kevlar Rafale?
The motor is the Hacker C-50 xl13 (Hacker opti-77 controller)and the lipos are two 5s4p in series...which tops out @ 10s4p @ 2400 watts ...18.1 volts.

Although I have been modeling for years this is my first venture into electric. I will be building the Kevlar Rafale as soon as I can obtain the model.
i think because of the design it has to be a b50 instead of the c50 series
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Old Mar 25, 2006, 06:14 PM
Watt me worry?
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Quote:
Demetrius:
i think because of the design it has to be a b50 instead of the c50 series
Explain because I am new in the EDF planes.
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Old Mar 25, 2006, 06:20 PM
Watt me worry?
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Is this correct? My lipos pack is 10s4p @ 18 volts if hooked in series.....but if hooked parallel would be 10s8p @ 36 volts?

I'm sorry if I seem dense but I am asking because I would like to use some of the equipment I already have whenI build the Rafale.
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 03:58 AM
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No, 10s4p means 10 in series, 4 in parallel. You add the volts in series, and add capacity in parallel. 10s is 10x 4.2v, so 42v, and under load with voltage drop will be around 36v
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 09:24 AM
Watt me worry?
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Thanks Birdseed.
So any ideas on the battery packs which should be used in the Rafael single engine? One single battery or two battery packs?

I am looking at the Turbo-fan 4000 and a Kontronik Tango 45-70. Suggestions and help are welcome. I am looking forward to building this EDF ....sort of a change from fuel power planes I have flown.
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax1965
...I am new in the EDF planes.
Sorry for being a bit blunt, but if you have no experience whatsoever in EDF planes or electric (and no clue about parallel vs series setups) the Aeronaut Rafale might not be the best plane for you to start with.

There are other places on these forums where basic questions on electrics such as "does 10S give me 18V" are better adressed. I suggest you get some simple foam edf as a learning experience .
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 05:58 PM
Watt me worry?
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Excuse me. I am an experienced pilot and I have helped many persons in R/C flying....including some with really stupid questions. You seem to think you are head and tail above others and look down your nose....I suppose you never had questions? I am interested in the Rafale and I do believe I have enough scruples to figure out if the plane is going or coming. You don't know me...why be an impatient fool? I have never in my life run into people who didn't want to pass on their knowledge.

I'm out of here.
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 08:07 PM
A-4 nut!!
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Hey Mad - Take a chill pill.

He wasn't saying anything like that. He simply stated that if it's your first edf or even electric - start with the basics. Jets are a lot different than anything else. It would be like your student saying - "Gee i just soloed a 40 size trainer - now I want to fly a BVM F-16"

BTW - When it comes to edf, Herb is pretty much head and tails above the others.
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax1965
.... I have never in my life run into people who didn't want to pass on their knowledge......
If you take a little time to read all the knowledge Herb has put into this thread, you will surely agree that this is not a fair suggestion to make.

If that is so - and he is actually trying to help - then you should really take a few minutes time to consider the advice he gave you - it might be appropriate and with good intentions.

We (in EDF) are using batteries (for example) that cost more than many models cost ... rc batteries, engine and all. In the event of a breakdown - we are using enough power to cause the destruction of more items than just the battery - the damage will cascade into other items in the EDF model, and cost escalates. Just the battery alone (still for example) can (and has done to several people) burn down your house, workshop or car, if you don't treat it just right. So at this power level you gotta learn a lot, fast, or suffer a lot.

Now we kinda know just who will break what before it happens, just as you do when advising a learner on your past models, and Herb's advice is merely that you work out the bugs (in your expertise) with a lower cost setup than the Aeronaut Rafale....before actually doing it on the Rafale and your pocket.

It is good advice and there is no need to take offense.
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 06:24 AM
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As Paul Harvey used to say - "And that is the REST of the story"
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 08:26 AM
Watt me worry?
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I apologize Herb.

No excuse but a rough day yesterday.

I have a large scale electric plane (not a EDF) and flew a Alpha mig yesterday...my first edf flight on a borrowed plane. No problems and was not as fast as some of the pylon racing I have done in the past. I just wanted a simple answer to some questions I had about the Rafale...I will build one to fly on down the road...I love building. As far as understanding and flying an EDF ...well I have flown just about everything except gliders but all were fuel powered. EDF is no big secret...just another prop inside a windtunnel. As for batteries ...I don't understand why I can't get an answer to my question. You make it seem I must understand batteries and that is why the question. Since this is a thread on the Rafle and since Herb is the head Rafeler I figured he would be the one to ask. To me batteries are just a fuel for a motor.......Gasoline is a fuel and I sure didn't know what mixture was used to make the gasoline.

If I had been ask the question I would have done so a different way. "Sure Max I think the "XYZ" Motor and fan would be great using "123" brand batteries in the single engined Rafale.......you may want to start with a foam EDF and work up to the Rafale"
Simple and no one is pi**ed.

Hey thanks to those who answered ........and I guess I will need to ask my questions to the person I buy the Rafale from.
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 08:36 AM
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mid west
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Hello All!
We have the new Kevlar Rafale by Aeronaut in stock. Limited numbers at this time, filling backorders first.
Justine, and your Ducted Fans Team

www.ductedfans.com
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 09:09 AM
It's like an addiction!
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@Madmax1965: Don't worry about it - ask the questions and you'll get the answers. There's one guy here who continuously cross-posts, repetitively asks the same question, probably has around 5 big-a$$ EDFs (more likely 7 in the meantime), a turbine and merely flown something similar to the MIG you flew! So there. It's a great bunch of EDF'ers in this forum and always willing to help.
Keep at it! Best regards, Chris
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 11:07 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Downwind3, do you have somebody in mind ?
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 11:48 AM
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...
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 01:21 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Belgium
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Lipo packs : Wired in parallel or independantly ?

I flew succesfully my Twin MiniFan (70mm) Aeronaut rafale. It fly like a dream, and show that the "lighter is better" approach is good also. At 2.5 Kg, it is indeed very easy to fly while having enough power (at least for me ! !). I recommend this approach definitively, at least for "not too experienced JET flyers" !


So far I have 2 complete separate propulsion systems : Each Fan is connected to a controler that goes to a 4s 3200 Lipo pack.

I wonder if there is no risk here of having one cell pack going down well before the ohter ( a motor can draw more than the other, a pack can have less capacity...)

So, should't rather wire the 2 LiPo packs in parallel through a " Y cable", and have this "virtual 4s2P" then conected to the 2 controlers (through a "reverse Y cable " ). This will allow the 2 packs to stay at same voltage all the time ?

What do you think ?

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Old Apr 01, 2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ductedfann
Hello All!
We have the new Kevlar Rafale by Aeronaut in stock. Limited numbers at this time, filling backorders first.
Justine, and your Ducted Fans Team
Can you please PM me on $$ and H&S.

Thanks,

Phil
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 04:42 PM
who dares wins
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bmaaa, interesting that your esc's aren't in the airflow, what rating are they? do you have any cooling air to the esc's? i know you draw just 30amps max on each motor
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 05:57 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Belgium
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Yes Max MAx is 34 Amps, which translate in 30 Amps Max in Flight. The ESC are rated 40 Amps. There is some coolong since there is an opening bellow the fuse under the cokpit. The air then go along the Lipos and exit through the 2 exausts around the exaust duct. This is Enough apparently (plus... I leave in belgium, not very hot country... to say the least)
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 11:41 AM
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servos?

Herb,
i have a kevlar rafale on its way to me... i want to get the servos purchased before it gets here, what did you use? what torques and case size fits the bill?
kirk
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 12:39 PM
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I have been flying mine for two years with two HS-85MG for the elevons and various other microservos for airvalve and steering.

Several are flown in Germany with the almost equivalent HS-125MG, which are a bit thinner. If you load it up quite a bit with batteries, you might want to increase the servo rating slightly. If you have money to burn, you can even use digital servos (but which share most of the mechanical/electrical components, and which will require a larger receiver battery)

Good qualitity JR analog (thin) servos with comparative torque ratings would work well too:

http://www.fatlion.com/sailplanes/servochart.html

Whatever servo brand you pick, it's a good idea to test each servo extensively - before installation - for perfect centering, no buzzing etc.
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 08:00 AM
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thanks herb,
i have another question. did you make the canards function? if so, i assume they go trailing edge down with up elevator? what are the recomended travels?

my kevlar rafale showed up yesterday, its pretty dang nice.
kirk
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 08:14 AM
EDF Jet Jam May 2014
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United States, KY, Crestview Hills
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Hey Kirk,
Sorry we did not not get a chance to talk more at Toledo.
Did you check out Icare's booth, They had the big Pletti designed for the TF4000. How about posting a photo of your new Rafale.
Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by imacav8r
thanks herb,
i have another question. did you make the canards function? if so, i assume they go trailing edge down with up elevator? what are the recomended travels?

my kevlar rafale showed up yesterday, its pretty dang nice.
kirk
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imacav8r
Thanks Herb, I have another question, did you make the canards function? ...
Mine does not have functional canards, I like to keep things simple. The active canards are not needed for weights below 3.5 kg or so. As far as I know none of the Rafales (twin and singles) flying in Germany have functional canards - including Rehm's prototypes.

On my second twin 90mm Rafale I am thinking of using twin servos for the elevons, for redundancy.


.
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Old Apr 12, 2006, 12:40 PM
EDF Jet Jam May 2014
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A twin of a Twin?

[QUOTE

On my second twin 90mm Rafale I am thinking of using twin servos for the elevons, for redundancy.


.[/QUOTE]
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Bob you need to work on your typing skills -

The twin Rafale I have first flew two years ago on GP round cells and is getting a bit old. I could use some design changes to adapt it to the times (like more space & flexibility where the LiPos need to go to get the CG right, motors better suited for higher power and longer flights, better esc placements for airflow, slightly stronger wing joints & spars etc).

Needless to say, I don't plan on having two Rafales airworthy at the same time . But there's a lot to be said about having a Rafale that does not use exotic one-of-a-kind components to fly, an uses instead readily available commodity off-the-shelf 90mm fans & motors . Which will fit tens of other 90mm-fan sized edf's.

Gregg and I made a cost-per-flight comparison of turbine vs large edfs (greater or equal to 90mm) last week, and the numbers are quite sobering if you add all the hidden costs & often underplayed reliability issues.

And I am talking about jets that actually GET flown every weekend, because an edf that does internet flying only has of course zero operating costs .
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 12:23 PM
EDF Jet Jam May 2014
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I would venture to guess that the cost per flight on the EDF is much lower than one would ever guess!

Herb, I also cracked open the catalyzed filler and primers again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb

Gregg and I made a cost-per-flight comparison of turbine vs large edfs (greater or equal to 90mm) last week, and the numbers are quite sobering if you add all the hidden costs & often underplayed reliability issues.

And I am talking about jets that actually GET flown every weekend, because an edf that does internet flying only has of course zero operating costs .
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 12:50 PM
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No, sorry the other way.

Small turbines are nowadays extremely reliable and you can fly all day with little worry. I would no hesitate to fly turbines only - if I had a decent field within a 2hr drive where I could fly them - but I don't.

The relatively large hidden costs of large (90mm and above) edf's are

the extra packs you need to get more than one six minute flight in a day,

the rather low reliability & durabilty of LiPos combined with their only very slowly decreasing costs and their limited shelf life

the only limited flexibility in battery layout and placement, which makes it more difficult to adapt to evolving battery technology & geometry

the overheating problems of improperly installed motor cooling setups, leading to fried motors

lack of decent partial throttle performance (ie overheat & thermal cutoffs) of almost all large esc's, except for the very latest ones
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 01:38 PM
who dares wins
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thats exactly what ive been thinking Herb,

ive only been flying electrics for about a year and a half, for me the reason is edf, it was a QEFI edf article by Gordon that got me interested, at the moment mine are minifan only (HET f18 and sniper, and Just! finishing a twin RBC F22 ) , and i will get a single midi soon, i really want a single 90mm F18 but dont have the time to build another kit ( im slow..), i thought about the schreiner twin90/single 120 (and the aeronaut Raf) but the costs are as you say tough at that size. i figured a 10s DS94 setup with 2 flight packs is the same as a wren44/ P60-P80!

and thats only 2 batteries. As it is 99% of the time i take a glow model or two also to the field so ive got something to fly whilst waiting for lipo's to charge (Kyosho Oxalys50/YS63 is sweet )

i think for me high performance lipo cost/reliability is the limiting factor for the bigger jet. i use 4s packs, so for a 90mm ill go 8s. so possibly a single 90 is the limit for me, the reliabilty/care needed with current pack chemistry is significant, but hey all things evolve

so, at the mo, im having fun with my smaller jets, and holding off that electric / turbine battle at the 120 size, hmm, for how long...

Alex
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 02:13 PM
2014 EDF JET JAM We be Jamming
Kevin Cox's Avatar
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Joined Jan 1997
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Oh man! I hope this doesn't turn into that ugly thread on RCU about EDF vs GT.

Here in the US we have a kids cereal called Apple Jacks. The commercials starts off with the parents eating the cereal and telling the kids it doesn't taste like apples!The kids reply, "we know, but we like it."

I think it fits the current useless discussion on EDF vs GT.
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 03:43 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Belgium
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Problem with neutrol ?

Hello,

I found that I need 5mm up elevator (see picture of neutrol on my Rafale) to get it flying evel.

Is it normal ?

I see 3 possibilities:

_ The rafale need this "reflex" to be stable.

_ I have the canards fixed with wrong incidence

_ My GC is too much in front. I put it at 140mm as recomended (?)


Can someone tell me if it is normal or if I need to change GC further to the back of the plane (obviously, i don't want to change the canards incidence !)

Anyway, as it is it is may be not goor for ultimate speed, but is is "super safe".


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Old Apr 14, 2006, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Cox
Oh man! I hope this doesn't turn into that ugly thread on RCU about EDF vs GT...
I think some of the people (a very small minority) over at RCU are in serious need of psychiatric help . There are some real tradeoffs though which sometimes are completely overlooked. Btw the turbine guys I know are great and I always have a good time with them - and they fly electric too!
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
... I found that I need 5mm up elevator (see picture of neutrol on my Rafale) to get it flying level. ...
I think you are noseheavy - or have the wrong canard incidence - or both.

The canard incidence is hard to get wrong though, because it should match the (top) profile on the fuse. Also there is a supplied template for the canard in the kit.

There is a standard test for noseheaviness: does it pull up in a dive? If it's not overly pitch sensitive at the moment, I would move the CG back a bit.
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 06:31 PM
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I think they have been diverted by BV's production stoppage / delay with the Kingcat and Bobcat .

Herb's got a point, I still haven't figured out what the best battery is for EDF. We need to carry more capacity than we really want to on the light / high energy density packs for good cell life or use the heavy ones and they are perilously close to the weight on Nimh's which have actaully gotten very good while we've all been spending mega bucks on Lipo's the last two years.

Plus of course, new / better cells come out every two months...
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Old Apr 14, 2006, 08:26 PM
Acme Powered!
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Orange,CA
Joined Jul 2000
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EDF's

Herb, now that I am on the road to recovery I hope to come out and fly with you guys soon I have several EDF's to finish glass and paint. And I am waiting for Robert to send me the single Midi Fan ducting and formers for my Rafale, hopefully soon.

I agree with the twin Midi's I am planning to build Chris GOld's RA5 Vigilante this spring/summer(I already had a kit cut from his plans) A small rain forest of wood but nicely drawn plans.
By the time I get it finished I could probably have a small turbine aircraft. But like you I have no place reasonably close to fly one, I cant even fly my glow prop planes and ducted fan I keep hoping that The County of Orange see's fit to let us have some land to build a field. I never thought I would say I miss Mile Square but I do I used to go flying during the week back when I was in college and had the field to myself sometimes usually when the crosswind came up
Joe
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Old Apr 15, 2006, 04:51 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Well HERB, does this canard is at the right incidence ?

thanks

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Old Apr 15, 2006, 12:54 PM
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Well HERB, does this canard is at the right incidence ?
Apparently not.


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Old Apr 15, 2006, 06:52 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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OK this may explain the necessary up trim. I will however try to move the GC location a litle bit to the back of the plane.
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Old Apr 28, 2006, 11:18 AM
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I don't have a picture of the plastic template that came with the Aeronaut kit, but here's another picture of the designer's (Joerg's) Rafale, you can see in his the top of the canard is aligned with the fuse relief as well (in the first picture).

The second picture shows Ulf's functional canard set in neutral, seems alignd with top relief as well.

.
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Old Apr 28, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Elston
... I keep hoping that The County of Orange see's fit to let us have some land to build a field. ... Joe
Don't count on it , we will be lucky if we can hold on to the Fairview Park flying field for a few years ...
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Old Apr 28, 2006, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
... the "lighter is better" approach is good also. At 2.5 Kg, it is indeed very easy to fly.

... should't rather wire the 2 LiPo packs in parallel through a " Y cable", and have this "virtual 4s2P" then conected to the 2 controlers (through a "reverse Y cable " ).
I agree, lighter is always better (unless referred of course to a submarine ). At that weight, it should land like a glider.

Either battery setup will work, but twin battery will give you redundancy. If one motor cuts out for whatever reason (eg battery voltage low), the other one will still run (how do I know ?).
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Old Apr 28, 2006, 06:04 PM
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Here's a photo of the templates supplied with the Aeronaut single fan, kevlar Rafale. Hope this helps.

Kirk
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
... Herb's got a point, I still haven't figured out what the best battery is for EDF...
Me neither Took the Rafale out for a spin yesterday, to test the new batteries...

Springairs really don't seem to like all the dust at my field and the refill valve was leaking too. Later at home I used compressed air to clean out the left main gear mechanism, and some silicone oil seems to have fixed the refill valve leak?

Other than that, a pretty nice flight . Ah, and thanks Bruce .

Yesterday's Rafale flight

.
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 02:19 PM
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You're welcome Herb.
Thought I'd record more footage to give you something to edit!
Having been the first time I've seen this jet, I was very surprised how light it actually is with 2 big fanunits, retracts, etc...
Regards,
Bruce
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 07:53 PM
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Fairview

Herb, beautiful flying and the plane looks great So there is enough smooth dirt to fly a jet with retracts?
It didnt look like you had any problems taking off. Did you find out why the gear didnt come down?
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmiller
Having been the first time I've seen this jet, I was very surprised how light it actually is with 2 big fanunits, retracts, etc...
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce,

I was told by Morris at ductedfans.com the new kevlar Rafale for the TF-4000 fan was lighter out of the box than the twin fan Rafale. A couple of days ago I started a build thread for the kevlar Rafale: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=510916&pp=15. If you look at the last post on the first page you will see the out of the box weight of the parts. The whole airframe, including the hardware, wood parts, untrimmed canopy, untrimmed cockpit kit, etc. weighs 45 ounces. It would be interesting to compare the out of the box weights of the kevlar Rafale to the out of the box weights of the twin Rafale.

Kirk
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Elston
Herb, beautiful flying and the plane looks great So there is enough smooth dirt to fly a jet with retracts?
It didnt look like you had any problems taking off.
Joe, takeoffs were no problem when we just had packed dirt ... The grass is getting a bit thick & patchy nowadays with all the rain we had, and it gets a bit uneven as well.

You can see from the video that the Rafale actually slows down a bit when it hits the grass part, but then rotates no problem when I give it full up. I think next time I will start the takeoff run a bit further back so I have more dirt and less grass . I am just getting lazy these days and did not want to walk all the way back - as I know it lands like a pussycat.

Keep in mind that the wheels are quite small, especially the nose wheel ...
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Old May 01, 2006, 01:16 AM
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Rafale

Herb, your Rafale sure flys great I did notice the jet slow down when you hit the choppy parts of the runway. But when you pulled the stick back she wanted to fly..
Makes me want to get a big Rafale.
Joe
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Old May 01, 2006, 08:10 AM
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Beautiful Rafale Herb!

Your gear instalation must be very strong - nice job.

I purchased my first set of spring airs and am a bit dismayed at the problems you are experiencing, but the dust can be pretty tough on moving parts, but I would think the seals would wipe it away as the pistons are actuated.
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Old May 01, 2006, 11:10 AM
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Naah no problems at all, I think just poor maintenance on my part . I find that the Springairs are VERY well built and VERY solid.

I took the rear retracts out completely yesterday evening (four machine screws out + just disconnect the airline) and flushed the mechanism with isopropyl alcohol and a brush to get the accumulated dust and grime out between the mount and the flange. Then I oiled them a bit and boy did that make a difference .

I thought I would have to replace the one sticky main for peace of mind (I have replacements), but that turned out not to be necessary. The refill valve was bad though, and I had to replace that one.
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Old May 01, 2006, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_sonn
Bruce,

I was told by Morris at ductedfans.com the new kevlar Rafale for the TF-4000 fan was lighter out of the box than the twin fan Rafale. A couple of days ago I started a build thread for the kevlar Rafale: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...t=510916&pp=15. If you look at the last post on the first page you will see the out of the box weight of the parts. The whole airframe, including the hardware, wood parts, untrimmed canopy, untrimmed cockpit kit, etc. weighs 45 ounces. It would be interesting to compare the out of the box weights of the kevlar Rafale to the out of the box weights of the twin Rafale.

Kirk
Thanks Kirk, I'll check your thread.
For the airframe alone the weight should be very close. The 'glass work is superb with no excess epoxy anywhere so I don't really see a composite airframe being ALOT lighter if at all. It would be stronger at the same weight however. But what really matters (to me anyway)is AUW. The single 120mm should be somewhat lighter vs the twin 90mms but I don't see a huge difference. That 120mm fan will require a much bigger and heavier motor. Probably it weighs less than the 2 90mmfan motors put together. It'll be interesting what weight yours ends up at.
Cheers,
Bruce
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Old May 02, 2006, 10:24 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Twin 70mm EDF is even lighter ! Mine is 2500 gr AUW with 2 x 4s 3200
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Old May 02, 2006, 04:27 PM
2014 EDF JET JAM We be Jamming
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Great flying Herb.
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Old May 11, 2006, 03:12 PM
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If you bungee launch the Rafale , then the twin 69mm MiniFan are definitely an option - For 90 oz and ca. 1000-1200 Watts you can get away with those, and end up with a very light setup.

If you have pneumatic retracts installed though, your weight will go up a bit (maybe 10+ oz or so if you include the mounts, steering etc ), and you will need plenty of thrust for a grass takeoff , which will point you again towards the (new improved) MidiFans or the 620's, or similar.

What seems to be often overlooked though is that MidiFan setups can be quite light if you use a light motor and use judicious throttle management. Eg if you need only 1500 Watts, then you can get away with a motor of 1500 /(2 x 5) g = 150g ca. (Joerg's Tango setup is only 300g). Why add extra ballast when you don't need it?

Btw there seems to be a law of nature that pneumatic retracts always work perfectly at home .
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Old May 19, 2006, 10:17 AM
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Herb,
Would you mind telling me where the CG ended up on your rafale. I dont have the instructions anymore and I need to set the final config for flight.

Thanks
Derrek
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Old May 19, 2006, 12:55 PM
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I just measured the CG on mine at 28.7 cms from the (front of the) fan intake lip. It seems to fly fine at this CG, and is in my experience not overly sensitive to it's location.

I believe this is close where the instructions state it should be, but my recollection is that the Aeronaut CG is conservative and a bit forward.

God knows how many different packs & configs I fitted in this one, always having to re-adjust the CG . The ample space bewteen the ducts sure helps, so you can move things back and forth without too much of a problem.
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Old May 20, 2006, 01:28 PM
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... I just looked up the intructions that came with the Aeronaut Rafale, and there the CG is listed (on the 1/4 scale drawing) at 27.2 cm from the intake lip. So my present CG is slightly behind what's listed there.

At the time I did re-check the CG as a standard procedure, and the recommended one seemed fine:


.
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Old May 23, 2006, 11:41 PM
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hi Herb, i am thinking of starting the twin 90 Rafale that i've had for a couple of years. I am unsure of making it with the large ejf retracts or spring air (601)retracts. Also, thinking of going with the large megas 3t(22/30/3t with 70 jetis) any thoughts? i also could go with the new version e series megas and with hi voltage esc. providing the retracts don't workout anythoughts guys? Herb sorry for all the questions but are the retracts a lot of work or should i just toss out the idea and just go for the power add a skid here and there and not worry about retracts and just consintrate on creating a missle?
thanks guys for any sugestions and input
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Old May 24, 2006, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
... I am unsure of making it with the large ejf retracts or spring air (601)retracts. ... are the retracts a lot of work or should i just toss out the idea and just go for the power add a skid here and there and not worry about retracts ...
Andrew, To some extent it's really a question of taste ...

Do you have a nice grass field you fly at most of the time, or do you have tarmac, or both?

Clearly for tarmac retracts are better suited, while grass (except the very short variety) could be used for a bungee setup.

My original idea was to fly the Rafale off of both, which did not work out as they closed every asphalt runway field (El Toro, Prado) within a 1 hour drive of where I live - just about after I finished installing retracts . Sepulveda is as I see it a real zoo on weekends, and I would not fly there anything fast and valuable even if you paid me .

Having said that, the twin 90mm Rafale is a real monster of a plane and looks a bit funny on a bungee/ramp. But quite a few people still fly it that way in Europe, you are trading a lot less complexity for a very light weight and very high performance . So if that's what you like, go for it!

The Springair retract installation in the twin 90mm Rafale is quite straightforward in my opinion, but you have to measure and cut the relevant formers and mounts out of sturdy aircraft ply (the ply that comes with the twin kit is too heavy and should be ditched, at least in part).

Weights and performance are comparable (if calculated correctly) in the twin 90mm and single 120mm setups, with the retract installation simpler in the single at the expense of poorer ducting design (bifurcation) and some CG issues (Lipo batt can't slide back too much because of Y intake). The sound, well that's another issue ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
... Also, thinking of going with the large megas 3t(22/30/3t with 70 jetis) any thoughts? I also could go with the new version e series megas and with hi voltage esc. providing the retracts don't workout
Those would work fine, you will need >1500 watts total with retracts, but without you can get away with less (>1000 Watts). So there's lots of choices of Megas and Lipo combinations depending on weight. I would keep the weight below 110 oz with retracts, and a bit less than that without.

Keep in mind that the edf Megas (E series) are special order I think, so maybe that part needs some planning ahead of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
... the large ejf retracts or spring air (601)retracts. ...
Regarding the specific retract issue, there's the Springair 602's that work like a charm most of the time , I am not familar with the ejf ones so I can't give you any opinion there.

Aeronaut delivers the single 120mm with their own set of retracts pictured below, which are very nice and a bit of a Spingair clone. These would work nicely too.

Finally WeMoTec has their own set of very nice lightweight pneumatic retracts, which should work very well too. So plenty of choices there.

http://www.wemotec.com/prototype/ind...261ce594f9725a


.
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Old May 25, 2006, 11:41 PM
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Also Herb, i am unable to find the install of the retracts for the rafale? Did you post the construction?
thanks
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Old May 26, 2006, 12:10 PM
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Andrew, I posted a few pics at the beginning of this thread. It will be easier (and cleaner) to install the retracts from the very beginning, as opposed to doing a retrofit later on as I did (with some equipment already in there).

A guy in the UK even installed rotating retracts, but that's even more work and it's hard to tell how they would hold up on a dirt/grass field:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=342

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...25&postcount=1

Keep in mind that you won't have any gear doors unless you are going for a static display contest, as you need all the air you can get to cool off your precious LiPo batteries and esc's .

Some of the original formers need to be ditched and replaced by ones suitable for a front retract installation:

.
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Old May 26, 2006, 09:22 PM
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Do they make a different version of the Rafale for the wemotec 480 or it's the same rafale that can also be flown with 2X480?
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Old May 27, 2006, 02:41 AM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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I fly the Rafale on 2 x min fan... It's the samen version.

Super performance for as little bucks you can have!

Try it on 2w20's... gives 1150W

Fly at lease with 1000W

Good option is a Kontronik 480-33 will give you 2 x 650W!!!

Pascal
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Old May 27, 2006, 11:39 AM
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Akelelias,

There's a picture of the MF480 setup here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=326

As long as you don't have gear, smaller fans (HW-620's or even MF480's) seem a viable option esp. costwise with the inexpensive Het motors (if they last).
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Old May 27, 2006, 12:37 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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On my setup they still last... about 20 flights so far (of about 7-9 minutes)

Pascal
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Old May 27, 2006, 03:15 PM
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Assuming 2x480 powered by 2w20. What size battery would let me fly at least 5min. Do i need one or two?
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Old May 27, 2006, 03:32 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Just scroll down this thread.... read my expiriences with 2 x MF , 2 x 2W20 and 2 x 4sPQ3700

Pascal
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Old May 28, 2006, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Elston
Herb, beautiful flying and the plane looks great So there is enough smooth dirt to fly a jet with retracts?
It didnt look like you had any problems taking off. ... Joe
Grass takeoff with retracts is no problem if you have the required thrust & low enough takeoff weight

Two more Rafales at yesterday's E-Meeting in Germany ...

In the background a very nice Schreiner (redesigned 90mm ducting) F-16 with retracts, and Hoffmann's Me-262 twin 90mm and Dolphin. Photos by Stefan T http://www.jetcom-modellbau.de/index_deu.html


.
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Old May 29, 2006, 09:53 PM
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I got my minifans 480, 2w20 and 4s3200mha. I am getting the following readings,

37 - 39 amps
510 to 520 watts per fan
and 23 to 27oz of trust per side.

I expected the 2w20 to perform better than that. I might try the Kontronic 480-33 next unless someone have a better suggestion.
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Old May 29, 2006, 11:18 PM
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Akelelias:

Are you using one 4s3200 for both motors or one per motor? should be one batt pack per motor, I have the same set-up I just made a test and got 720 watts, 46.5 oz on a single fan
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Old May 30, 2006, 02:19 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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hello all of you ;

who will go to GRENCHEN next week-end ?

I like to mee you there. I will bring my rafale & pyrana

Bertrand
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Old May 30, 2006, 07:06 AM
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no, i am using one battery per side. it's a Thunder power. I will re-run the test today.
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Old May 30, 2006, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akelelias
I got my minifans 480, 2w20 and 4s3200mha. ...
I expected the 2w20 to perform better than that. I might try the Kontronic 480-33 next unless someone have a better suggestion.
The motors you have are pretty good, you can throw money at it but my guess is that if you want more power (>600W/fan) you need to increase the cell count, or just stay with it. The Kv on the 2W20 (3450?) might have changed during the production run ? The Kont -33 will give you less power not more on the same cell count
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Old May 30, 2006, 04:05 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Sorry Herb, but I fly both setups...

4S (PQ 3700) on minifan;

2W20 gives 42 A max
480-33 gives 45A... defenitly more thrust!

It seems to depend on setup on your ESC.


Pascal
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Old May 30, 2006, 04:14 PM
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... hmm my point was that his problems would not be soved by throwing $300 worth of new motors at it
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Old May 30, 2006, 06:31 PM
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Per HET-RC Info manual this motor (2w20)gives 2980KV. I will definetely re-run the test. There is no reason to get less than rodebaron on the same set-up. BTW what ESC are you using Rodebaron51? I am usin g the one from Warbird-RC an SPT60 programmable. I made sure my ESC's were programmed on timing and cell counts.
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Old May 30, 2006, 07:09 PM
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ok so the Kv of the Typhoon 20W2 is now different (and a lot lower) from what's listed here:

http://www.motocalc.com/data/show.cgi?table=1&sort=1

That would explain the discrepancy . Sorry I don't own any Het-RC motors, but the Kontronics I have (480-42 and 480-33) are excellent motors.

Ok but then your "new" het 20W2 motors should work fine on (33/30)*4S = 4.4 S .


.
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Old May 30, 2006, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_Ruiz
Akelelias:

Are you using one 4s3200 for both motors or one per motor? should be one batt pack per motor, I have the same set-up I just made a test and got 720 watts, 46.5 oz on a single fan

I am pretty far from the above numbers for the same set-up though. Right now my max is 516watts but alexis ruiz is making 720!!!!
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Old Jun 05, 2006, 11:22 AM
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You probably have a different wind...

My Rafale just shipped from Germany, still debating what motor setup to use on this one, I might switch to twin Hacker B50's in the new Wemos.
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Old Jun 05, 2006, 11:46 AM
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Sorry for the late reaction... I'm using only Hacker Master ESC's... no more cheapo's for me!!!

I don't like the tsunami ESC. Didi not give met the power I got from my HM! And tried a lot of different settings!

Pascal
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Old Jun 05, 2006, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
You probably have a different wind...

My Rafale just shipped from Germany, still debating what motor setup to use on this one, I might switch to twin Hacker B50's in the new Wemos.
you doing another twin with retracts?
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Old Jun 05, 2006, 12:50 PM
It's like an addiction!
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After seeing this Rafale fly I don't blame you guys for going for it! Enjoy: Rafale
Chris
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Old Jun 05, 2006, 07:55 PM
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Wow
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Old Jun 08, 2006, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
you doing another twin with retracts?
Yes just like the present one, but with a few improvements .

The one I fly now is almost 3 years old:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=154235&pp=100

and was originally set up to fly (and flew for a few months) on 28 GP 3300 round cells (ca 1100 Watts).

It has since flown on 12S PQ 3100 cells (ca. 1860 Watts), on 12S Kokam 3200 cells (ca. 2460 Watts in the video posted above) and recently on the 6S1P and 6S2P 3700 cells (2500+ Watts), and those poor Mega motors are at their absolute limit .

The new one will have a better battery space allocation so I don't have to go insane every time I need to fit in there a new Lipo set, new wiring so I can swap controllers more easily, a cleaner and sturdier steering servo setup etc. Also I am bit worried that the wings might fly off on this one, that would not be pretty .
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Old Jun 08, 2006, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Yes just like the present one, but with a few improvements .

The one I fly now is almost 3 years old:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=154235&pp=100

and was originally set up to fly (and flew for a few months) on 28 GP 3300 round cells (ca 1100 Watts).

It has since flown on 12S PQ 3100 cells (ca. 1860 Watts), on 12S Kokam 3200 cells (ca. 2460 Watts in the video posted above) and recently on the 6S1P and 6S2P 3700 cells (2500+ Watts), and those poor Mega motors are at their absolute limit .

The new one will have a better battery space allocation so I don't have to go insane every time I need to fit in there a new Lipo set, new wiring so I can swap controllers more easily, a cleaner and sturdier steering servo setup etc. Also I am bit worried that the wings might fly off on this one, that would not be pretty .
in about a month i will start my twin and i would love to see the improvements that you are making while i build mind!
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Old Jun 08, 2006, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Herb
Yes just like the present one, but with a few improvements .
...The one I fly now is almost 3 years old:
The new one will have a better battery space allocation so I don't have to go insane every time I need to fit in there a new Lipo set, new wiring so I can swap controllers more easily, a cleaner and sturdier steering servo setup etc. Also I am bit worried that the wings might fly off on this one, that would not be pretty .
Herb, can I make you an offer on your "old" one?

Bruce
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by demetrius
In about a month i will start my twin and i would love to see the improvements that you are making while i build mind!
Andrew, it will be a while and you might get to it before me. Bruce, I think I will hold on to it.
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 01:02 PM
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...Bruce, I think I will hold on to it.
Well I had to give it a shot anyway!
Regards,
Bruce
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Old Jun 12, 2006, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by demetrius
In about a month i will start my twin and i would love to see the improvements that you are making while i build mine!
Well the package I received from WeMoTec today contains, besides the shiny new Rafale, a few of the new aluminum spinners, very nice Oliver !

They are about 0.1oz lighter, so the new spinners are only 0.15 oz or ca. 4g each. The rotor still needs to be balanced for high power levels, but from now on not the spinner.

.
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Old Jun 12, 2006, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Herb
Well the package I received from WeMoTec today contains, besides the shiny new Rafale, a few of the new aluminum spinners, very nice Oliver !

They are about 0.1oz lighter, so the new spinners are only 0.15 oz or ca. 4g each. The rotor still needs to be balanced for high power levels, but from now on not the spinner.

.
very nice Herb!
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